Fee Machines are being Installed

Imperial Sand Dune Recreation Area • Including Buttercup & Gordon's Well

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Fee Machines are being Installed

Post by Jerry Seaver » Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:18 pm

They have started installing the fee machines and hope to have some operating by the weekend before Halloween. Here's the one that is at Buttercup.

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Actually this is the connex box that the fee machine will be inside of. The fee machine will look similar to a ATM and dispense the permit.

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Post by jhitesma » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:08 am

Will it be 24 hours? I see they have "hours of operation" marked on the side. Not having the machines available 24 hours kinda defeats the purpose.

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Post by DuneRookie » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:32 pm

Best I can tell

Hours

Thur-Mon...8 to 5
Tuesday and wednesday 8 to 3
Holidays 8 to midnight.

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Post by jhitesma » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:48 pm

It's fairly easy to read on the fullsize:

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... GP0549.jpg

Thurs - Mon: 8AM to 10PM
Tues & Weds: 8AM to 3PM
Holiday Hours: 8AM to 12AM


But no indication if that's hours it will be staffed or if the machine itself is only going to be available those hours. If they machines aren't unattended and available 24 hours then why even waste the money on the machines? Did they have employees skimming the till last year or something?

If those are the only hours it will be possible to buy passes then adding the machines isn't going to make any difference and a lot of people are going to still not be able to buy them when they arrive.

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Post by LoBuck » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:14 pm

Those are the hours they will be staffed. All other times the box will be closed and the machine will not be accessible.

With the number of on and off site vendors as well as the websites to buy them online there really is no real need for the machines. The push is for everyone to purchase the permits before they arrive.

The machines themselves were purchased and delivered last season but were not ready to be installed. The reason they were purchased? The agreement required it from the onset. The ICSO is just now getting around to meeting that requirement. Too late? Yeah, I think so.
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Post by jhitesma » Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:41 am

Isn't the point of the machines to have an automated 24 hour way to buy passes that doesn't require staffing?

What's the point of the machines if they're only going to be available while staffed?

Sounds like the ICSO is meeting the letter of the agreement but not the spirit. Kinda makes sense I guess since they tend to be the same way about some of the ways they choose to enforce some laws out there to the letter even if it goes against the spirit of the law. (like whip heights and where/how they're mounted on motorcycles. i.e. a whip strapped to the biker is more visible but not legal because it's not attached to the vehicle and the guy gets a ticket for not following the letter of the law, while one that's attached to the vehicle but is lower than the highest point of the rider does no good and fails to follow the spirit of the law but gets no ticket because it meets the letter of the law.)

Seems to me that they're putting in machines just because they're required to put in machines - when the reason they should be required to have machines (24hr pass availability) is still not being met.

Those hours are a joke as well - there are a LOT of people who don't arrive until after 10PM (camping at the vendors to run a check-in for the cleanup we get to watch a lot of them.)

Is the TRT actually OK with this?

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Post by L&L Corvairs » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:44 am

My opinion is there is no need for machines. Passes are available everywhere. And just about everyone going knows they need a pass. They can be purchased from the vendors out there. Sorry, but machines are a waste of money.
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Post by jhitesma » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:06 am

There are a lot of occasional visitors who have zero interest in a yearly pass as they only come out once or twice a year.

Most of the off-site vendors don't offer the weekly passes (In fact I'm not sure if any do or even can.)

These occasional visitors also don't keep up with news about the dunes like those of us who live for sand. They also may not visit the dunes every year and in some cases no more than every couple of years.

In many cases they know that passes are required, but since they have no interest in a year pass they end up having to wait to buy a pass on site. But when they get there - they find sales closed for the day and no way to buy a pass.

Sorry Lloyd, while I don't feel sorry for those who make many trips, never miss a year and can justify a yearly pass. That's not the only type of visitor the dunes get.

IMHO the ICSO is still skirting their agreement and NOT meeting the intent of their contract nor do they have any interest in actually living up to the conditions they agreed to. The introduction of a new Sheriff and additional funding from other sources is only making it worse. I've yet to talk to a TRT member who disagrees on this and isn't upset over the ICSO mess - yet still nothing is being done about it.

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Post by L&L Corvairs » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:23 am

jhitesma wrote:
Most of the off-site vendors don't offer the weekly passes (In fact I'm not sure if any do or even can.)
Going to respectfully disagree. Unless things have changed from last year, all the off site vendors I know sell weekly passes. Went to the GBS store last year and got a couple for our friends myself. Crazy Kevin (good guy) sold several thousand passes last year and you know they weren’t all yearly ones.

I agree with you Jason, 99% of the people coming out know in ADVANCE that a permit is needed. But that tends to make my point. I would rather the ICSO spend a couple of thousand $$ on some signs, pointing to the nearest permit vendor(s) for those who need to buy passes and don’t know where to go, then tens of thousands on expensive equipment that is highly subject to breakdown, theft and vandalizum, and which will probably no longer pay for themselves because so many people DO buy them in advance.

Every time I go fishing or hunting, I have NEVER ONCE been met at the dock, river or trail head with a machine to sell me the appropriate license that everyone knows they must have. What is it with us duners that we have this belief that we deserve to be coddled?
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Post by SailAway » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:34 am

L&L Corvairs wrote: Every time I go fishing or hunting, I have NEVER ONCE been met at the dock, river or trail head with a machine to sell me the appropriate license that everyone knows they must have. What is it with us duners that we have this belief that we deserve to be coddled?
A fishing license, which can be used throughout California, cannot be compared to a "use pass" that can only be used in one location.

And, I can walk into any WalMart or sport equipment store and buy a fishing license. The same cannot be said for the permit needed at Glamis.

It's not a matter of being coddled, at least not for me. I always have my permit one way or another. But I do object to creating a demand, limiting the supply and then punishing the user who gets caught short.

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Post by jhitesma » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:49 am

L&L Corvairs wrote:
jhitesma wrote:
Most of the off-site vendors don't offer the weekly passes (In fact I'm not sure if any do or even can.)
Going to respectfully disagree. Unless things have changed from last year, all the off site vendors I know sell weekly passes. Went to the GBS store last year and got a couple for our friends myself. Crazy Kevin (good guy) sold several thousand passes last year and you know they weren’t all yearly ones.
GBS has even more restrictive hours than the ICSO's pay stations. I have no clue what kind of hours Kevin keeps but I know down in the south dunes it looks like most of the vendors that have passes close up at night not much later than the ICSO does....but duners arrive at all hours.
I agree with you Jason, 99% of the people coming out know in ADVANCE that a permit is needed. But that tends to make my point. I would rather the ICSO spend a couple of thousand $$ on some signs, pointing to the nearest permit vendor(s) for those who need to buy passes and don’t know where to go, then tens of thousands on expensive equipment that is highly subject to breakdown, theft and vandalizum, and which will probably no longer pay for themselves because so many people DO buy them in advance.
Now you're talking like my congressmen and agreeing with me on something I never said and don't agree on. I don't believe that 99% know in advance that a permit is needed. I'm guessing that the number is more like 80%.

The ICSO was not forced into this contract. Pay machines were part of the contract and they need to be provided - period. theft and vandalism are no better excuses for ICSO than ignorance is for those who get caught breaking the law. ATM machines have been built for YEARS that are capable of everything needed to sell passes and they are VERY vandal and theft proof. The technology is there and is NOT all that expensive - the problem is the ICSO did not properly research the company they were buying machines from and got a raw deal. That's no ones fault but the ICSO and they are the ones who have to pay for their own mistake. They wouldn't cut any of us any more slack if we slipped up and I see no reason to cut them any back.

There are only two ways that selling through a vendor on site is reasonable as the only solution:

1) 24/7 vendor availability.

2) Gates and limit entrance to hours that the vendors are open.

I won't put words into your mouth like you did me but the only logical conclusion from your "solution" seems to lead directly to limited entrance/exit hours and gates.

Every time I go fishing or hunting, I have NEVER ONCE been met at the dock, river or trail head with a machine to sell me the appropriate license that everyone knows they must have. What is it with us duners that we have this belief that we deserve to be coddled?
Totally different situation. One of the BIG problems with ICSO as the fee contractor is that they have a MAJOR conflict of interest. They are tasked with both sales and enforcement - and they are not doing everything they are required to do on the sales side...and they have little incentive because unlike the BLM they DO profit from the enforcement side.

With fishing licenses you don't have one agency that is responsible for sales and enforcement and which profits from that enforcement when people are not able to purchase a license (not to mention the licenses are available more places, at MUCH lower cost, and I can think of several places here in town which are open 24/7 and sell them. I can't think of any place in town with dune passes that is open 24/7.)

Bottom line is ICSO is not meeting the requirements of their contract. Or at the very least is only meeting the letter of the contract and not the intent. Meanwhile they continue to profit from the situation and have zero pressure/incentive to clean up their act.

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Post by j bracht » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:42 pm

Going to respectfully disagree. Unless things have changed from last year, all the off site vendors I know sell weekly passes.
As an occasional duner (once or twice per season for the last 10 years or so) I know this to be un-true (at least since the 24/7 machines have gone away). I have attempted to buy a weekly pass from many offsite vendors and been told they do not sell them. I try to do the right thing but always end up having to sweat it out, hoping the LEO's don't write me up while I am buying a pass.

Last year, we pulled in to Ogilby about midnight, got up and rode to DB Flats at about 9:00am and bought six weekly passes. We got back to camp while the LEO's were in camp hassling those still there about not having passes. They were taking down plate numbers when we pulled in (did I mention there is no place at or around Ogilby to purchase a permit?). We showed the LEO the permits (one per rig) and were told "we were lucky."

If I could buy them from off-sites, I surely would. And I agree, they can't be compared to a fishing license that can be bought at any sporting goods store. I can't justify a yearly permit and won't pay for it.

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Post by Jerry Seaver » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:03 pm

It isn't easy to get a weekly permit before going to the ISDRA but it can be done with some effort. Here is a link of the places that sell permits, not all sell the weekly permit so it would be best to find out before hand.

http://www.imperialsanddunes.org/indxvend.htm

I hope this will help, I don't expect it is going to get any easier. Maybe the best solution to avoid a hassle is to get a permit before arriving. Ogilby takes the most effort after you get there than any other place.

Site for buying a weekly permit from the Imperial County Sheriff,
http://www.imperialsanddunes.org/pc-1-1 ... eekly.aspx

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Post by YumaDune » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:40 am

Working at Glamis there are quite a few vendors with permits however Buttercup is another challenge. While there yesterday morning, Monday.. from 9AM to 11:30 AM there was no place to buy a permit! I had at least three people come up looking for permits and the conex never had anyone present. I will try and contact ISCO today for some input??
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Post by j bracht » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:15 am

We tend to go on off weekends, which makes it even more difficult to get a pass. I have tried many of the vendors (at least from AZ) in years past and they only sold annuals. Hopefully it will be different this year. Tried the Shell station west of Yuma last year, and the cashier said his boss had all the passes at the dunes.

Sad thing is, we want to do the right thing and buy passes. I duned for many years at Little Sahara in Utah and never had a problem getting a use pass. On busy weekends, they had a check point that sold the passes. On off weekends, they had an honor system, like most state parks I have been to. If LEO or ranger pulled up and you didn't have a permit, they would remind you to go and get it. If they came back and you hadn't complied, then it was ticket time.

The last few times I have dealt with LEO's at ISDRA, I fealt like a criminal. Their attitude seems to be guilty, guilty, guilty. We are not a rowdy bunch. We are 6-10 families that go to relax and have fun with our kids (only one of the reasons I like Ogilby).

I know they got burned on the 24/7 machines, but they were (IMHO) the best answer. We never had a problem until they went away.

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Post by Woodglue » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:56 am

Not really related to Weekly Pass Purchase, but...
j bracht wrote:The last few times I have dealt with LEO's at ISDRA, I fealt like a criminal. Their attitude seems to be guilty, guilty, guilty. We are not a rowdy bunch. We are 6-10 families that go to relax and have fun with our kids (only one of the reasons I like Ogilby).
From what I see, it seems that ISCO / BLM are trying to change this image. At one time, not too long ago, there were signs out there exclaiming BREAK THE LAW, GO TO JAIL!
Now, those signs have been replaced by programs like "Get caught doing the right thing" and "Take it outside".

I hear what you're saying j bracht, but I'm in hopes that it will be changing this season. Time will tell.
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Post by YumaDune » Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:58 am

I called the Chief Deputy that used to be in charge of the Dunes. He checked and the reason the machines are not open is due to the phone company being unable to provide service. As soon as this gets straightened out they will be up. Until then all we can do is refer permit seekers to vendors that are open and selling or the Shell station at Sidewinder.
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