Why does it seem that some Glamis Dunes.com peeps hate the ASA?

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Why does it seem that some Glamis Dunes.com peeps hate the ASA?

Post by OBSESSED » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:49 pm



Why does it seem most Glamis Dunes.com peeps hate the ASA?

However I now think that title is unfair...

Or is it just the loud obnoxious ones that post ***** their opinion?


I visit over there from time to time, and every time there is some post about how the ASA SUX, can not be trusted, etc-etc...

Why has the ASA failed to "UNITE, INFORM, and MOBILIZE"
the dudes at Glamis Dunes.com?

As Voice [The Pastor] says in his sig:

"Come on over and say what is really on your mind"
or something like that. However when you me/anyone says anything positive about the ASA he is flamed.

I do not get it.

Someone explain this to me, maybe I should have posed the question over at Glamis Dunes.com, but no one likes the flame throwers...

Why do some Glamis Dunes.coms just hate the ASA,
Why do they mistrust it so?

I think they love the dunes as much as any ASA member, somehow, they have been led astray.

I do not understand, why has the ASA failed so getting the Glamis Dunes peeps on board?


The ASA costs nothing, and it is fighting to keep the dunes open, why wouldn’t EVERY duner want to become a member?

Steve

Please explain this any way you can,
Constructive criticism is needed, lets not let this thread flounder into a bashing experience.
Last edited by OBSESSED on Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by L&L Corvairs » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:52 am

Great question, but can’t help ya there, pal.

I quite reading and posting over there about a week and a half ago exactly for those reasons listed above. Continued public bashing, flaming and misinformation only hurts our goals and sport. I don’t go places I am not wanted or welcome. :(

I have more constructive things to do with my time. (See sig below)
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Post by GRANT@FUNCO » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:54 am

I think there are many reasons I also don't think it is most.

I think there is a general ANTI_ESTABLISHMENT mind set by some folks over at Glamis Dunes.COM and the ASA being a credible mainstream org is seen as THE ESTABLISHMENT.

I use this analogy often . ASA has taken a direction of getting inside the box so we can push the shape of the box from the inside out . Others semm to believe sitting outside the box and trying to push it in is the way to go. .

Another thing is I think is they assume or have been led to believe that the ASA BOD are'nt REAL DUNERS as such don't have a feel for what the real duners wants or needs are.

We have reached out to the Glamis Dunes.COM Management on a few occasions but have not been able to acheive the desired result.

I am not at all suggesting that everyone should just fall inline and follow blindly . We need to be challenged if some one does not feel we are doing the right things.

A really wise oldman once told me "IF YOU ARE CONSEQUENTIAL YOU WILL BE CONTROVERSIAL"

Fortunatly that old man is on our team

And at the end of the day with some over there it is just plain old POLITICS .
Meaning the only way to elevate your own accomplishments is to tear down others accomplishments.
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Post by Crowdog » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:59 am

Steve,

A lot of folks just want Glamis to be "the way it used to be". To some, changes at the dunes (not including the closures) are not good things. They just want to be left alone, with no one telling them what to do or where they can go.

Unfortunately, our sport has increased in popularity, and the Southwest population has grown by incredible amounts. Those two things combine together, and changes happen whether you like them or not.

A few things come to mind when people bash on the ASA.

1. Some believe that people involved with the ASA have personal agenda's to close the drags for example.

2. The close ties with the ASA/UDG/BLM with no answers coming from the UDG. Will the UDG promote Glamis and make it even more popular? Will they foster commercialization?

Two different examples. Somewhat common thread. I am not saying I agree or disagree with this. Just making some observations.

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Post by Washroad » Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:54 am

I just don't have an answer.

A year ago I quit posting over there just because of this. I was encouraged by a fellow duner to go back after several months and I did.

Well, now I'm gone again. This time for good.

I'm all for good debate, good arguement.

That isn't what is going on over there.

For the record; I never bashed any other org while there and never made a personal attack on anyone.
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Post by AlxCook » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:27 am

ASA has taken a direction of getting inside the box so we can push the shape of the box from the inside out .
I think this says a lot, I think many Glamis Dunes.com members like to look outside the box for answers. Is one right or wrong?? tough to say, but one is certainly more politically correct.

In regards to actual bashing, there are only maybe 4-6 people over there that actually "Bash" the ASA. If asking questions is bashing, well then there are a lot of members then.

And guess what, there are ASA members that come on the Glamis Dunes.com and bash DUNERs also, some people just can't leave things alone. Are there some personalitiies that don't like each other, YES on both sides, and it goes all the way to the top. Do I think the members like this, NO!!!!!!!!!!!

I used to spend more time on this board than Glamis Dunes.com, but the volume of post here as slowed down in the last year and has become more of a board to educate and inform, this is good in my opinion because the ASA is a political being now, so debate can't happen here as freely as it used to be. So much of that debate has moved to Glamis Dunes.com where there are no poitical ties of any.


One more thing, IT IS SUMMER..................happens every year when people can't get enough sand.
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Post by Poiks » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:47 am

Given the request to keep it clean, the best thing I can think of to say is that I have nothing good to say.

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Post by thor » Sat Jul 16, 2005 12:29 pm

Steve,

You've been around since the beging of both. It used to be alot worse and I think it is only a few people that still hold a grude.


just my .02

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Post by The Oldtimer » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:03 pm

Glamis Dunes has about 6500 members...maybe a dozen actually "hate" the ASA...

This BBS has 4100 or so...and I am willing to bet that three times that many on this forum "hate" the Glamis Dunes peeps!

Alex's post nails it faily well.

It someone starts a "flame and bash"war over there, it usually dies a natural death..

Start one here and the "cheerleaders' come out in force... :lol:

A lot of you are way to sensitive for supposedly open minded adults...you just can't stand criticism. even whan it imay be constructive. You throw out the "Look what WE have done" card...

They KNOW what "you" have done...you keep telling them.

The personal issues between several of you and a certain lady is generally the catalyst for most bashing sessions...

And everyone here that posts over there holds their own in the ability to bash...

Me? I hate no one. I know most of you, especially the veterans...while I don't always agree with you, I don't take it personally.

But...some of you folks do.

This issue has two side to it...open up that sometimes closed mind...sorta like we want to open up the closed areas.
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Post by ca desertdigger » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:03 pm

No flaming or bashing here, I think the ASA is a very good organization and is doing what it states (keeping the dunes open).Too much negative bashing on that other web site,I can't see any good come from it.I think the ASA is headed in the right direction,and want to thank all the volunteers who make it happen.


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Post by OBSESSED » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:42 pm

thor wrote:Steve,

You've been around since the beging of both. It used to be alot worse and I think it is only a few people that still hold a grude.


just my .02
and then Frankie says:
Glamis Dunes has about 6500 members...maybe a dozen actually "hate" the ASA...

This BBS has 4100 or so...and I am willing to bet that three times that many on this forum "hate" the Glamis Dunes peeps!

A lot of you are way to sensitive for supposedly open minded adults...you just can't stand criticism. even whan it imay be constructive. You throw out the "Look what WE have done" card...

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Frankie

Hate is a strong word Frankie.

I had a conversation [a couple of years ago] with a founder of another group. He said he didn't like the way the ASA was going, I told him he should try to help change it from the inside out, as Grant said, mold the box from the inside. At any rate, he quit the ASA.

I have to admit, I do not agree with 100% of what the ASA does. Meaning, sometimes the path we the ASA takes is not the path I would take, to get to the end.

I have had threads and posts more then one time deleted, because they were deemed to controversial.

So be it, I understand, even though, the ASA is me, it doesn’t need to agree with me 100%.

That is the confusing part, the Glamis Dunes peeps, must realize that they do not need to agree 100% with the ASA, to be a member. Bashing from the outside, really doesn’t do any good. If they do not like the path we [the ASA] takes, they need to question it; from the inside.

From what I can gather [maybe you know more reasons they hate the ASA], they mistrust the ASA because they believe [correct me if I am wrong]:
No one that makes his living from the SAND should be a ASA board member [First Mark Harms, now Grant]
They believe the ASA influence’s too much BLM Policy.
They want more freedoms at Glamis, some how, they think the ASA is against personal freedoms.
They think the UDG is the ASA, so now they hate the UDG.
They now don’t trust the UDG or the ASA and the BLM.
They don’t like Dr. Haas and feel he will hurt the ISDRA they think the ASA somehow hand picked him to set ISDRA policy. {Personally, I feel he doesn’t “GET” the ISDRA, I also hate the RAMP}

And Frankie, it is hard to hate a cartoon character. The past is done, some people feel the need to control, others, [like myself] want the truth. Now, truth be told, there are so many versions of the truth, I feel that some Glamis Dunes peeps hang their hats on a version that maybe not 100% true.

Again, all this is my opinion. I like VW’s, you like V8’s; however we all want the dunes open 100%. Sometimes I think the Glamis Dunes ASA bashers, forget this fact.

I really like the policy of the ASA BB, that we must sign up with a real name. Over at Glamis Dunes, I could sign up under any name and start posting, maybe I will....

Right-right...

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Post by OBSESSED » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:58 pm

ca desertdigger wrote:No flaming or bashing here, I think the ASA is a very good organization and is doing what it states (keeping the dunes open).Too much negative bashing on that other web site,I can't see any good come from it.I think the ASA is headed in the right direction,and want to thank all the volunteers who make it happen.


ASA member.
The ASA.org is not the ASA BB.

There are over 20,000 ASA members, so less then 20% post to the BB.

The Glamis Dunes.com is not a .org, and has only 6100 posters.

I want to reach out to the Glamis Dunes 6100 to join the ASA, so I want help trying to figure out a way to do that. I think being a member of this BB helps you learn more about the dune issues. I want the Glamis Dunes 6100 to be more informed. I want the "Bad Apples" that may poison the minds of a unsuspecting Glamis Dunes member against the ASA to seek out the truth for them selves. Remember the old saying, one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. With 10 active postwores spewing 1/2 truths about the ASA, and their opinion, I am afraid that fresh virgin minds will be warped against the ASA.

I have NEVER joined another Group/ORG/ETC before. I am not a joiner, I am a loner. When I found out the good the ASA was trying to do, I was all for it. So I was almost a Charter Member.

So here I am, wondering and asking why? Why wont you become more informed? Why wont you join the ASA?

Steve
Last edited by OBSESSED on Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by The Oldtimer » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:27 pm

"Hate is a strong word, Frankie."

Yup...

"Why does it seem most Glamis Dunes.com peeps hate the ASA?"

You said this...the very first sentence in your post...???
From what I can gather [maybe you know more reasons they hate the ASA], they mistrust the ASA because they believe [correct me if I am wrong]:
No one that makes his living from the SAND should be a ASA board member [First Mark Harms, now Grant]
They believe the ASA influence’s too much BLM Policy.
They want more freedoms at Glamis, some how, they think the ASA is against personal freedoms.
They think the UDG is the ASA, so now they hate the UDG.
They now don’t trust the UDG or the ASA and the BLM.
They don’t like Dr. Haas and feel he will hurt the ISDRA they think the ASA somehow hand picked him to set ISDRA policy. {Personally, I feel he doesn’t “GET” the ISDRA, I also hate the RAMP}
There are probably a few people that agree with everything here, a few more that may agree with one or two of your points, but I doubt if many really give it much thought.

Maybe the black helocoptors really ARE flying over your house, Steve... :lol: You are painting the GDers with a broad brush...A lot of black and white here.."you're either with us or agin us"...We're the chosen few...repent, non believers!!"

You don't have to join the ASA to be informed. Anyone can read all the stuff available on this sight, and if they can't, someone always posts a link or the complete topic on other forums.

The ASA isn't the only show in town. There are other people as deeply committed as anyone in the ASA when it comes to the ISDRA. In my opinion, and I don't make this statement lightly, it's just that the ASA wants everything for itself...they want autonomy.
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Post by BeachHead » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:09 pm

I won't pretend to answer for all of the Glamis Dunes.com members, but since I occasionally post over "there", I'll share some of my personal observations.

First, Glamis Dunes.com is a whole lot more than the "glamis issues" portion, just as this forum is more than the "policital discussions" section. If you ONLY focus on the "issues" portion, then I can see how you might conclude there is an anti-asa bias, as there are a few very vocal anti-asa members who do tend to insure their view is well known. Yet, if you venture to the other areas of the site, you'll very rarely find the anti-asa rhetoric. I would say the conclusion that "most Glamis Dunes.com peeps" hate the asa is a rather unfair and condescending statement.

But I also would say that if you really want to know why those vocal anti-asa'ers have the feelings they do, you don't have to look much further than that sort of broad statement. All to often, I observe prominent asa members displaying what can easilly be interpreted as a very superior attitude. I've seen them attacking, and playing out their personal agenda on the leader of another dune advocate group. Quite frankly, some come across as arrogant jerks. In this very thread, someone worries about how a fresh dune user could be "tainted" twords the asa by misinformation by Glamis Dunes.com members. Do you think these same users might not be "tainted" by this type of condescending, know it all attitude displayed by some of the asa supporters who post on Glamis Dunes.com?

I've been fortunate in my life to occupy various positions of leadership. I've also been exposed to many different leadership styles, and experimented with a few different approaches myself. I'm far from perfect, but I've found that you affect more people if you lead by example, and respect others, even if you disagree with them. (I will admit there are some that are not worthy of respect..but they are econazi's, NOT other duners) So, certainly some of the angst you observe is self initiated.

Some of my other observations are that the asa is generally viewed as overly sympathetic to law enforcement. I think the "typical" duner enjoys the off road lifestyle because it is unfettered from the overbearing presence of revenue generators. I understand why the asa has been vocal in this arena, yet I think many many duners think things are better, and the asa would be well served to publicly get some distance and start fighting for less "b.s." revenue generation, less "riot" style public interaction, and please, no more mention of radar guns in the dunes.

Now, let you be ready to string me up, let me say that my personal opinion of the asa is a very positive one. I've met some of you, and never met anyone that I wouldn't be happy to see again, camp with, and share my cooler with. And from your posts, I've read many others who seem just as great. I don't care if he sells sand rails, or sand candles, we are all very lucky to have Grant working for all of us. I know this is an all volunteer organization, and there are many unheralded workers who deserve all duners gratitude for keeping our playground open against some very overwhelming odds. I will say that I don't agree with everything the asa does...just like I don't expect everyone to agree with everything I say..;)

I will analyze what I perceive happening. I will question what is going on. I don't trust eco nazis..or anyone who's continually and publicly advocated public land management techniques that are contrary to the free, open, and unfettered use of the dunes. So it's going to take some very serious and open communication from the udg to explain why this econazi lover has been let into the pro user community, and just as importantly, how anyone can expect that he will work twords that end. Oh, and I AM a member of the asa (wife as well) ....I tend to espouse changing the box from within, outside, or whatever means possible.

I don't know if this discussion will change anything. I do know that we are all passionate about the dunes. I also know that you're not going to find anyone more passionate than Slappy or Brian. I won't put any words in their mouths, but I can assure you that Glamis Dunes.com and it's members care just as much about the dunes as anyone within the asa. I do hope that my words will be taken with the same helpful intent as which they were written...

And IF, I can clear my schedule of a 3 year old commitment, I'll be seeing some of you next Saturday..:)

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Post by Poiks » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:36 am

When you can show me an example of people successfully securing a reduction in law enforcement by complaining about law enforcement, then maybe I'll start seeing things the GlamisDunes.com way.

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Post by Voice » Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:31 am

Interesting conversation.

I've tried explaining this many times and many different ways in the past. I'll give it another shot here.

The purpose of the ASA is to Unite Inform and Mobilize... right?
Newsflash, that is NOT the purpose of Glamisdunes.com.
Our credo, if you will, as espoused by Slappy is:
"Preserving and promoting the symbiotic relationship between off-road enthusiasts and the wildlife of the Algodones Sand Dunes."

We are not an originized group seeking to be activists in the "fight" to do anything whatsoever. There are many orgs that are already in place who are doing that.
Yes, many of us join one or more of the many orgs, and many of us do things in our own way that may somewhat parallel what the ASA tries to do.
But in the end, we are nothing more than a loosely moderated (on purpose) place where all duners, (or anyone, for that matter) can come and say what is on their mind.
If we were an actual org, our website would be like yours. Very little activity, conversations between people who probably already know each other, and lots of preaching to the choir.
Instead, we have adopted the general internet model of "all opinions are welcome and even encouraged" even the bad ones. The idea is you pick the ones you like to give creedence to, and you either ignore or avoid those you don't.

Imagine, for example, if we all of a sudden decided that the ASA was the best game in town and we need to get behind each and everything they do by moderating anything that didn't complement "the fight". No longer would we be a place where people can feel free to voice their opinion no matter what it is.

I'm afraid you are trying to compare apples to oranges. We are not trying to be like the ASA or like Duners or like any other org. We are more like a large group of duners you might find at Glamis. Some will be well versed in what is going on, others will have no clue. Some will have personal agendas, and some wont.

As I've learned myself in another of our fourms, the Politically Incorect forum, the way to get your message out is not to use guilt or condencension. No, you have to use your own power of words. You have to use facts. You have to use pictures.

I noticed in the last couple of days, both Vince and Grant put all of the bull behind them and made a couple of very informative posts which explained their side of things very well. I was heartened by this, thinking that maybe they've finally "gotten it".

There is nothing wrong, IMO, with people expressing their opinion on any subject. Posting an opinion does not make them bad just because they had an opinion. Saying things like "Why don't you quit whining and do something?" does not ring true. Before someone is moved to become an activist they generally have to have a strong opinion about something. Consider our board to be just a large conversation among duners. There is nothing wrong with having the conversation. Just because they post more than you does not mean their time is "wasted" because they took the time to write their thoughts down. At the very least they can feel that their opinion is held by someone other than themselves. They can actually talk about it.

Anyway. Beachhead has it right. The majority of Glamisdunes.com does not hate the ASA. The Dunes Issues forum is a tiny part of that BBS.
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Post by Washroad » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:00 am

I, for one, fully realize that the majority of Glamis Dunes.comers don't "hate" the ASA.

I also know full-well that 99.999999999% of Glamis Dunes.comers are terrific people!!


I also know full-well that any org. bashing is is quid pro quo. Deny that if you wish, it's true. Yeah, some people call us "cheerleaders" as if that's a bad thing for defending the ASA. Whatever. I know where that name calling started.

What Vince posted in his signature is what we need to realize: For every person digging at the root of a problem there are 100 more hacking at the leaves.

I'm going to concentrate on the roots.
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Post by GRANT@FUNCO » Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:53 am

This issue/discussion are no different that virtually every facet of life.

Just like all the issues and problems related to the dunes.
Complex and multi pronged . In other words very grey with no simple answer . Reading through these post I can see a multiple of sides .

Hows that for a politically correct response ? LOL

I think there is a tone set on the Dunes Issues Forum by the Moderator/Most prolific poster /President of another Org.

The folks there trust that the info being disseminated is accurate. And look to this person for info.

I believe that single person as much as anyone has the ability to keep things toned down.

Kind of a truth in reporting thing.
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Post by SailAway » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:11 am

I had a post written in response to Grant's post. Several, actually.

But as I was pondering the irony of the "truth in reporting" statement I finally accepted that any attempt to openly respond would be an exercise in futility.

I will only say that I am sorry you continue to believe what you do about the members of Glamis Dunes.com. You do a great disservice and disrespect to a large and very vocal, attentive and concerned faction of the duning community.

And that is a true shame.

There will be no further response from me.

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Post by Wolfpack » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:27 pm

SailAway:
There will be no further response from me.
That'll work - Take your ball and go home?

From the Duners Mission Statement: "When unified, the off-road community has the power to control the future of their sport."

Just some food for thought...
You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

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Post by Poiks » Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:32 pm

SailAway wrote:There will be no further response from me.
0+0=0

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Post by ChuckZilla » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:55 pm

I regularly frequent Glamis Dunes.com, even more than here (it does get a little slow here, maybe I should post more?), and have noticed the negative post's. What I think the problem for many critical of the ASA is that since they cannot agree with 100% of what the ASA does in it's fight, they won't let themselves subscribe to the ASA wholeheartedly. That is the kind of people they are, if the ASA can't fit their model of "perfect org" then they can't fit the ASA into their list of "acceptable orgs". They won't compromise their standards so they can realize the big picture of the ASA's mission, and with many having the "you are either with me or against me" attitude they MUST choose one and then we get the result. It is a small group who are very vocal , maybe someday they will see something dramatic happen that is good for all duners and with any luck it will come with the news that the ASA was instrumental in getting that land back or new training regulation for LEO's etc, and they'll be forced to self question their lack of support for an org that worked so hard to help them.
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Glamisdunes.com Responds

Post by FNG » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:33 pm

My Partner (Slappy) will soon respond, however, I am extremely disturbed by the perception the ASA including one of their prominent BOD has with Glamis Dunes.com. GlamisDunes.com does not involve itself with the political aspirations, power trips, and ego mania prevelent in various duning organizations. Glamis Dunes.com has been ripped on more than once by the ASA for not displaying their logo on our home page.

Our response is that NOT ONE org. dot com, etc has shown that it has the internal fortitude to warrant a "Glamis Dunes.com seal of approval". We have paid advertisers. Period.

Our members are free thinking "outside and inside" the box individuals. They do not represent Glamis Dunes.com, the ASA or any other org. They're just people who love to ride, camp and do what they do.

It's unfortunate the ASA has adopted a "You're either for us or against us" attitude, and let the be known both here and on the Glamis Dunes.com websites.

Personally... I don't care. You may ask "Well FNG... if you don't care than why post on the ASA site?"

Because the org that has the ability to do the most good for the duning community, wants to get into a pissing match with EVERYONE not aligned with them including Glamis Dunes.com.

I'm sorry... I must of missed the headline that reads "Court overturns ISDRA Closures through ASA Effort". Until I read that in print, the ASA is just another "politic" who's more interested than preserving personal integrity of their BOD members than the symbiotic relationship between the dunes and riders.

GlamisDunes.com (hate us or love us), will never be the ASA. We don't want to be. We represent the cross section of the duning community that has no voice. We represent dads, moms, kids and teens who love to ride. Period.

We dont' even really care what the ASA does (to a point). That's why we don't come here and post. We figure you guys are really trying to do a good thing. The problem is (in my own oppinion), is that you have to many closed meeting deals, and backroom handshakes, and then announce to the duning community "look what we just did" and being too snow blind to see the errors in your ways.

I just have one word for the ASA. "Karma".

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Post by Slappy » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:49 pm

quote="GRANT@FUNCO"]We have reached out to the Glamis Dunes.COM Management on a few occasions but have not been able to acheive the desired result.
[/quote]

Grant, you have never ever reached out to the Glamis Dunes.com management, that is a lie. WE approached you last year at the SSSS, remember? We invited the ASA over to the Glamis Dunes.com community and offered you your very own forum so that the ASA can get more involved with us and us with you in an attempt to establish better relations between the boards. WE wanted to have improved relations and a unification with the ASA. You said, "OK, sounds good." We even discussed this with Jerry Seaver, and we even discussed a similar situation with Niel Hamada and the BLM with Jerry Seaver present. WE called your office and left two messages with you to call us back to confirm that you wanted to do this. NO REPLY. LL Corvair was to moderate your forum over at Glamis Dunes.com, and we were excited as hell to work together with you to improve the faltering relations between us. Slap guesses it wasn't the desired results huh??? Maybe a phone call back or an E-mail to say so would've been better so Slap would've known where you stand.

Then, a few of the ASA honchos came to Slap with an idea to hand out your safety brochure flyers in Slappy Packages. Hot ****, great idea, Slap was down with that. Slap said to send 50 to 100 to this address: 1501 5th Ave Ste 200. San Diego CA, 92101 so he could get right on it.
No flyers showed up, and no response. Is that another "un-successful result?" Slap thinks so, but not the fault of Glamis Dunes.com. Maybe these lies that were told of you Grant are true? Slap shunned them off when he heard them, but hearing that you've tried to contact Glamis Dunes.com with no desired results is on the shoulders of you. Slap was ready and willing to rock and roll with the folks at the ASA, but it never panned out. Heck, a few years ago you asked Slap to write a story and put it in your news letter with another un-successful result. Slap even sent the story to you, then you said you didn’t have enough room and slammed it shut. What are the desired results Grant? Please let Slap know what they are, maybe something can be worked out.

Now you got this clown called OBSESSED calling the Glamis Dunes.com members names; and he represents you? Are you kidding Slap? This knucklehead wonders why he can't have more than 5 people at his clean-ups; well Steve, maybe your wondering doesn't have to go much farther; you're a total ******. The funny thing is, you will say that you know you are, and that’s what we all get. WOW, what a great person to have represent an ORG that pushes uniting and mobilizing; making friends and influencing people, what a concept. Calling all the Glamis Dunes.com members bastards Steve isn't a way to have the SlapArmy join your clean-ups, nor will that get the support from Slap to promote it. It has been proven that the head folks at the ASA have called us names and slammed us as a unit. Idiots? The Glamis Dunes.com members are some of the smartest, most caring people in the world, and Slappy takes great offense to you calling us names. This is the very reason Slap created SLAPPY'S ADOPT A WASH; good people doing right for Glamis.

Little lies here and there turn into big lies all the time.
Last edited by Slappy on Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Glamisdunes.com Responds

Post by Poiks » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:53 pm

FNG wrote:GlamisDunes.com (hate us or love us), will never be the ASA. We don't want to be. We represent the cross section of the duning community that has no voice. We represent dads, moms, kids and teens who love to ride. Period.
You can try to pull that mantle onto yourselves, but it's awfully presumptuous of you. I love to ride, don't like the closures, don't like the politics, and don't like GlamisDunes.com. You sure as heck don't represent me, nor do you represent any of what I think is good about Glamis.

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Post by Poiks » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:55 pm

And by the way, OBSESSED sure as hell doesn't represent the ASA.

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Re: Glamisdunes.com Responds

Post by Slappy » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:01 pm

Poiks wrote:
FNG wrote:GlamisDunes.com (hate us or love us), will never be the ASA. We don't want to be. We represent the cross section of the duning community that has no voice. We represent dads, moms, kids and teens who love to ride. Period.
You can try to pull that mantle onto yourselves, but it's awfully presumptuous of you. I love to ride, don't like the closures, don't like the politics, and don't like GlamisDunes.com. You sure as heck don't represent me, nor do you represent any of what I think is good about Glamis.
Really POIKs? HMMM, pulling people together learning about wildlife, dune ettiquette, and responsibility to your fellow duner is what we believe. Slap has never been really impressed with you either pal.

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Post by jchappy » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:09 pm

Poiks wrote:And by the way, OBSESSED sure as hell doesn't represent the ASA.
you might want to read his profile

"ASA Clean-up Chairperson"

sounds like he represents the ASA
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Re: Glamisdunes.com Responds

Post by Poiks » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:11 pm

Slappy wrote:Really POIKs? HMMM, pulling people together learning about wildlife, dune ettiquette, and responsibility to your fellow duner is what we believe. Slap has never been really impressed with you either pal.
Well, you did a pretty good job of blowing smoke up my butt, then. Here are some quotes:
Slappy, 2/24/03 wrote:Slap would like your thoughts on it. Not to probe ya or anything, Slap just likes your style.
Slappy, 1/9/03 wrote:Thanks Poiks for stickin around and speakin yo mind on issues, you have a balanced head on yo shoulders
Slappy, 12/13/02 wrote:How you doin poiks, Slappy here. Slap sure glad you be a part of the Glamis Dunes.com family. Slap's been readin some of yo stuff, and he be likin your style. Slap also read dat you was gonna stay outta da controversial stuff. Slappy sure hope you don't, cuz you be a downright intelligent duner...Of course there be some serious mcbuttfarts on da board, but only a few, so don't let them stir ya...You can hold your own perty darn good against them. Slap's had his run ins with a few, and Slappy just wins them over with charm (actually, Slap sends over Mrs. McDuner, and she kicks the **** out of them).

Hope you stay around for awhile poiks, Slap appreciate you bein here.
Take care, and have yoself a McMerry Christmas,
Slappy
Considering that these e-mails from you were sent just before I stoped posting at your forum, it would seem that you became "never really been impressed" with me in my absence.

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Post by Poiks » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:14 pm

jchappy wrote:you might want to read his profile

"ASA Clean-up Chairperson"

sounds like he represents the ASA
Steve can coordinate as many cleanups as he wants. I don't believe he speaks for the ASA. If I'm wrong I hope someone from the BOD will let me know.

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Post by jchappy » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:23 pm

From his title it would seem he hold some kind of position with the ASA in regaurds to clean-ups. He might not be part of the BOD but it looks like he holsd a position. when he hold a clean-up for the ASA he reprsents the ASA. IMO
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Post by OBSESSED » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:35 pm

Anyway. Beachhead has it right. The majority of Glamisdunes.com does not hate the ASA. The Dunes Issues forum is a tiny part of that BBS.

OK, I said it seems to me, they hate the ASA.

When someone says an obviously anti ASA post, it offends all us members, so it seemed to me [which I agree painted the Glamis Dunes group incorrectly]. I must have offended some at Glamis Dunes because some one must have pee-peed in Slappy’s tea, read he quote here:
Now you got this clown called OBSESSED calling the Glamis Dunes.com members n

names; and he represents you? Are you kidding Slap? This knucklehead wonders why he

can't have more than 5 people at his clean-ups; well Steve, maybe your wondering doesn't

have to go much farther; you're a total ******. The funny thing is, you will say that you

know you are, and that’s what we all get. WOW, what a great person to have represent an

ORG that pushes uniting and mobilizing; making friends and influencing people, what a

concept. Calling all the Glamis Dunes.com members bastards Steve isn't a way to have

the SlapArmy join your clean-ups, nor will that get the support from Slap to promote it. It

has been proven that the head folks at the ASA have called us names and slammed us as a

unit. Idiots? The Glamis Dunes.com members are some of the smartest, most caring

people in the world, and Slappy takes great offense to that. This is the very reason Slap

created SLAPPY'S ADOPT A WASH; good people doing right for Glamis.

Little lies here and there turn into big lies all the time.
Lets set the record straight Slappy:
#1- Line 1-- I do not represent the ASA, I do a job no one else wants that is the Clean-up chairman of the ASA. I represent myself and my hatred of trash [at the dunes]. I only want the dunes to be a better place.

#2 -Line 2-- OK I am some times a knucklehead, and I feel it an honor for you to call me one. Just Call me Steve [obsessed] Brooks or you can call me SOB

#3-Line 3--They are not my cleanups, they are GLAMIS DUNES cleanups, what happened to you, the one clean that you gave me Tee-Shirts at we drew many helpers from the Glamis Dunes crowd. If I can get just 5 people to come out and give up an hour to clean the dunes, I feel blessed! I love the ISDRA, picking up old trash is how I express my love to Glamis.
#4/5-line--Well, I do not know what a total ***** is, but it must be bad. I am not hiding who I am, or what I do. You do understand that. Again though, I am not on the BOD/TRT/ETC/ETC… I represent duners that care for clean sand. We have had over 20 Mini Cleans since My wife and I decided to do them. NO AGENDA, we just wanted the dunes cleaner.

#5-Line--7-- When did I call anyone at Glamis Dunes Bastards? You may be putting words in my mouth there…

#6-Last Line, You lost me there, Slappy OK?
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Post by GRANT@FUNCO » Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:39 pm

My post at Glamis dunes
Pastor,

First let me acknowledge the fact that Glamis Dunes.Com did generously offer ASA it's own forum. We did decline primarily because we had noone with the depth of knowledge it would take available . 2 we felt it may be a constant source of contoversy and just like what is happening now ,not good for the dune community.

On the issue of fabricating reaching out , Myself as well as Jerry Seaver and maybe Vince(not positive ) have spoken at length with yourself ,Sandsampler as well as FNG on a number of occasions. The desired result I speak of ,is in my mind for the Glamis Dunes.COM leadership to better understand the BLM ,the FWS the utterly ridiculous BEURACRACY ,the out of control budget issue and politics involved and the ASA role in that. And in my mind you guys still don't understand. If you still view that as fabrication,there is nothing I can do about it .

As little as 2 weeks ago you and I had a PM exchange re the visitor center . I did not completely understand where and what it was fully about . (Feel free to post that exchange) Based on your response you lambasted me for not knowing and had your mind made up how and why it came about and quite frankly you are way off base.

A million bucks for a visitor center is ridiculous when the ISDRA is at a 2.6 million dollar shortfall. That million bucks can not supplement the ISDRA budget ,get this it is coming out of the transportation bill. Not federal appropriations to the dunes .

Look I believe that Glamis Dunes.COM is a valuable asset in getting info out ,it has a HUGE membership and very active forums . Maybe I see it this way . Glamis Dunes.COM is an awesome place for exchanging of free ideas but I think there is room for improvement when it come to getting info out .

Just one example , just read in your post "UDG buying a new FUNCO buggy, using our cleanup hours, the whole excuse for taking this event from the duners in the first place."I can only assume you mean the South Dunes Ranger buggy delivered in Feb of this year. I have no idea where you got that info but it is inaccurate .
That Buggy money came from Washington DC BLM law enforcement money. Again money that otherwise had no mechanism to make it to ISDRA. It came about because of a relationship ASA has built with Bill Woody head of BLM Law Enforcement. We were simply asked what was needed at the Dunes . Now the NOrth and South both have LEO buggy and Rescue buggy. BTW while I talk about DC law enforcement ,they have no juristiction over El Centro Rangers .Confused , yeah so are we sometimes.

There are alot of changes coming to the Dunes ASA did not ask for them, but they are coming like it or not. I invite You ,Sandsampler or any other person to come to the table and understand what they mean to all of us.

You want to know the caliber of people we are up against ,spend an hour or two reading CBD motion for summary judgement .

Excuse the typos and grammar ,I am an hour into this post and ai'nt gonna fix it.









One other thing , If I overstated what I felt was reaching out to the Glamis Dunes.COM,
Please except my sincere apology
GRANT @ FUNCO

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Post by Vincent J Brunasso » Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:06 pm

Heck, a few years ago you asked Slap to write a story and put it in your news letter with another un-successful result. Slap even sent the story to you,
I take the blame on this one. Producing the NL single-handedly is a killer - not complaining, just whining. I asked for an article and I got it. Next issue, next issue, next issue I kept saying – I have a dozen or so articles like that. Well the next issue didn’t get here but a hard drive crash did.

I always end up with some space left and try to find something of relevance that will fit that space – its not easy when you get down to the last few square inches. So, Slap, thanks and I’m sorry it never made it in.
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Post by Mike330R » Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:39 pm

Most people have said that only a few hate the ASA. But most people at Glamis Dunes.com that actually read and post in the DUnes UIssue section question the ASA's tactic's.

Like what lawsuits have they won? What has been reopened directly due to the ASA. Will lots of pressure about an issue/area make the BLM just say flip it and close it. What back door deals are being done? etc etc.

When these are asked people get defensive and fly off the handle. Some people answer level headed with a standard answer that still leaves you kind of wondering.
Mike

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Post by Vincent J Brunasso » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:28 pm

When these are asked people get defensive and fly off the handle. Some people answer level headed with a standard answer that still leaves you kind of wondering.
No win situation...

What can I do or how can I answer so that you are not left wondering?
FTR:
Like what lawsuits have they won?
One. FWS was ordered to give us an answer on the first PMV delisting - I think we got back about $12k in legal fees.
What has been reopened directly due to the ASA.
Nothing. The only thing I can say is that I truly believe the closures are not, to this day, permanent due to our efforts. Don’t forget that we are well on our way to get the PMV delisted due to our DC contacts and our Bio studies (although it still may be as much as a year away). Read the CBD’s request for summary judgment to see why this is so important.
Will lots of pressure about an issue/area make the BLM just say flip it and close it.
I personally don't think so. That's not a guarantee, but an informed opinion.
What back door deals are being done?
None.
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Post by Doc » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:36 pm

Some people answer level headed with a standard answer that still leaves you kind of wondering.

Yes many people try and answer the questions in a levelheaded manner but the answer may not be what the questioner had as a preconceived answer so they discard the answer and think the question was not answered. The tactics of the ASA are devoted to reopening any and all ISDRA dune closers and staying proactive to head off the next offensive move from the people that want to close more of the dunes. This proactive stance requires that the ASA try and anticipate what events may be used by the other side to bolster their position.

This is a giant chess game with moves and counter moves. As with any complicated business there are always things going on, some are public and some are strategies that are being formulated for anticipated and unanticipated events. Winning lawsuits is important but also filing the lawsuits is also important. Just as in a small claims court if one party does not show up the other wins by default. That is what happened with the original PMV listing, no body from the duning community showed up and the PMV was listed. Now we must get it delisted and keep anything else from getting listed. We must be proactive to head off these assaults on the dunes.

There are no black helicopters and all the volunteers that donate their time to the ASA would like nothing more that for the all the dunes to be opened and there be no need for the ASA. But the anti-access folks are not going away and we need to try and anticipate their next thrust and be prepared for it.

All of the key players that can answer the questions will be at the next ASA board meeting, in Anaheim, this next Saturday. The ASA board members will be happy to answer your questions and have a dialog on what our focus is. The guests will try and answer your questions but the answers may not be what you want to hear but they will truthfully try to respond to your questions.

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Post by OBSESSED » Sun Jul 17, 2005 10:37 pm

Poiks wrote:And by the way, OBSESSED sure as hell doesn't represent the ASA.
Heck...

I am lucky :? if the Moderators leave my posts up! :shock: :lol:

If asked I would be proud to serve, but WTF that is never going to happen! :D

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Re: Glamisdunes.com Responds

Post by OBSESSED » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:02 pm

FNG wrote: BLA-BLA-BLA

We have paid advertisers. Period.

bla...

It's unfortunate the ASA has adopted a "You're either for us or against us" attitude, and let the be known both here and on the Glamis Dunes.com websites.

Bla...

I just have one word for the ASA. "Karma".

FNG
Some of us agree with the way some post at Glamis Dunes, some of us don't.
Just as I painted with a broad incorrect brush not intended to be taken literal, you do the same with the for us or against us quote.
I do not agree, some loud mouths may have said that, far fewer then the ASA bashers at Glamis Dunes.
I don't like the for us or against us deal, I said it just seems some at Glamis Dunes hates the ASA...

Any way, There is strength in numbers, STRENGTH. Joining a .org for free that will help keep a place you love [or fight to keep a place you love] open seems to logical to pass up. It is my opinion, that anyone that has a limited disposable income would like to join the ASA.

As for you having "PAID" advertisers, wow, you are in it for only the $$$, say it ain't true!

Karma, $$$, KARMA...

$$$ good, the love of $$$ bad,

Again my opinion is just that, only my opinion.

An opinion, is just like a Slappy Riddle, some

can't be figured out, some times they make you smile, sometimes, you ask your self, WTF?

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Post by ChoppedLiver » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:57 pm

Having been a moderater on this BBS for some time and now a BOD member, I too have been flamed on Glamis Dunes more than once and the last time stung. For the sake of the org and my business I choose not to post regarding any serious issue over there as I'll only get chewed up and spit out regardless of my answer. It's extremly frustrating. I sometimes have been percieved as cocky or a jerk but that's just my style of writing (thank you CHP)and it's the big problem with written word over face to face communication.

I will be the first to admit that we all have different opinions on all these issues. Heck, our board confrence calls have been known to last 4 hours! But while I think all 9 of us have differing opinions and have voted against one item or another, we're all behind the direction of the orginization.

As for Steve. I think he's a great guy and his heart is right were it should be, in the dunes. Yes he tends sometimes to be controversial, and he has had posts deleted for having politically sensitive content. They were not deleted because of his opinion. Believe it or not no one has ever been deleted or moderated because of their opinion here. That's a big mis-conception. Other rules were broken in the process of expressing it that got them moderated.

Grant hit the nail on the head in his first post. Get in the box and start kicking and beating it and eventually it'll be roomy enough that we can live with it. Otherwise there are other more extreme groups and individuals that want the box taken away. If any of you would like a shot at shaping the box the BOD has an open position right now. Go to: http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... %20App.doc to be considered for helping us at shaping the box...

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Post by Mike330R » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:52 am

Thanks Vince.

One last post/question: How can you say you represent 20,000 people but don't ask them (or a sampling of them) what direction you will be going on a certain issue?
Rather the decision is made then the 20K people are told what the ASA did for you.
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Post by L&L Corvairs » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:55 am

Then, a few of the ASA honchos came to Slap with an idea to hand out your safety brochure flyers in Slappy Packages.
I own this one. I forwarded the address and asked that the brouchures be sent, as I didn't have enough in my personal prossesion to send myself. I ***-u-med they had been sent and recieved since I got no comments back saying otherwise. It is my fault for not following through. I wish Slappy had let me know that he never got his brochures, as I would have followed up again promptly.

I sincerly appreciated the effort Slappy et al was putting out for us. Am sorry it didn't work.

Thank you.

Lloyd Misner
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Post by Poiks » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:48 am

Mike330R wrote:One last post/question: How can you say you represent 20,000 people but don't ask them (or a sampling of them) what direction you will be going on a certain issue?
Not to answer for Vince, but when was the last time your mayor asked your opinion about his direction? Or any other representative? There's a difference (because most "leaders" are elected), but the reality is that some people choose to lead, and others can either follow or not. If someone belongs to the ASA, then the ASA represents them. If a member doesn't agree with the direction the ASA is going, they should communicate with the ASA about it, and it's not resolved to their satisfaction, should consider quitting the organization.

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Post by Doc » Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:44 am

Mike330R wrote:Thanks Vince.

One last post/question: How can you say you represent 20,000 people but don't ask them (or a sampling of them) what direction you will be going on a certain issue?
Rather the decision is made then the 20K people are told what the ASA did for you.
In a perfect world we would send out a list of choices for our members to chose and then form our policy around the answers. But in reality it is difficult to get much participation from our members. Most people lead very busy active lives and don’t respond to requests for feed back. We have four open board meetings in different locations throughout the year to try and make it convenient for the members that would like to personally consult with the BOD to do so.

We have many committees and always welcome involvement by any one that wants to become involved with the organization.

As Ron Scott said above we have an open position on the BOD and anyone may apply.

As the membership chairman I can attest that we have in our data base more than 20,500 ASA members. These all have verified mailing address. We have spent the last two years verifying each and every address to be sure they are valid and when we send out a mailing we ask for an address correction from the Postal Service so we can remove any members that we cannot contact.

It’s kind of like writing to your congressman in that the more feedback he or she gets the informed decision they can make. If enough of our membership responds than we can know if we are on the right track. If no one responds than we must assume that we are following the wishes of our members.

Please ask questions as we want everyone to be informed of the issues surrounding the ISDRA. Many of the issues are complicated and require some back ground information to fully understand what is going on. One example is the proposed visitor center located in the south dunes. Many people when they first hear of this think that the funds are coming out of resources that should be spent for improvements in the dunes. This is not the case. Just as money is appropriated for in one area of the budget cannot be used in another area. The money for the visitor center is coming from the federal transportation budget. Yes it would be great if that money could be used for visitor improvements but that is not what it was budgeted for. Just as defense appropriated money can’t be used for transportation projects. The only way to get more money for the ISDRA is through Washington D.C. They have the power to appropriate more money and that is one of the ASA’s priorities to get more dollars that CAN be used at the ISDRA.



The email address to the ASA Board of Directors is asaboard@americansandassociation.org.

This address goes to all the board members and someone will respond to your message.

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Post by ggorman » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:32 am

Slappy wrote: ..and he represents you?
Just to remind everyone:
Bottom of the page wrote:The opinions and statements on this Bulletin Board System are not the official stance of the American Sand Association unless stated as such by an official representative of the ASA.
Key phrase: official representative
That means:

A BOD member
An Official ASA Press Release
The ASA President (Grant)
The ASA Spokesperson (that's me)

That's all. NOT a BBS user, NOT a committee chairperson.

If I need to re-word that sentence I'm all open for suggestions.

I've also said this for years, BBS membership is NOT ASA membership. That's why we changed the link at the top to "BBS user list". Membership is treated differently and Dick and his team take care of that list.

Greg
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Post by Vincent J Brunasso » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:53 am

One last post/question: How can you say you represent 20,000 people but don't ask them (or a sampling of them) what direction you will be going on a certain issue?
Rather the decision is made then the 20K people are told what the ASA did for you.
Mike, that is an appropriate question and one that should be asked.

Jon and Doc have pretty much taken the words out of my mouth.

I have a lot of people ask me how the battle is going. A few minutes into the answer they’ll say they don’t care about all that, keep up the good work, and when are the dunes going to reopen? They don’t care about all the details and the steps we take – just get those dunes open. Some just want to give money because that’s all they have time for and others ask how can they help.

I do want to add also, that we do our best to communicate the issues as factually as we can. Then we describe what actions we take on them and why. If there is a question, everyone knows how to reach me; and many do. Many reach Bob, Grant, and whoever is their preference or with whom they have a rapport.

99% of the time, once their questions are answered, they have no problem with the what, why, how, and when of what we are doing. There is always going to be a few that have a different opinion but in our case, it is surprisingly few.

Many of the questions used to be about ugly rumors of ASA officials “on the take” – one rumor in particular had one of them obtaining a grant and keeping the money - over $80k. There’s a good reason for animosity right there – no one in the ASA started those rumors.

Another rumor is that ASA makes back room deals – no one in the ASA started that rumor either. I want to point out that IF, and I want to emphasize IF, we were EVER to make a “back room” deal it would quickly leave the back room with the condition that we would have to set it before the dune community. We want to get feedback and answer questions so that everyone that cares would be able to understand why we think it is a sound decision. This is how we approached the CBD’s offer.

Anyone starting those rumors is not helping the cause and is working against us all. Activities designed, intentionally or unintentionally, to undermine our fundraising, volunteer recruitment and creditability or generally impede our progress, hurts everyone that loves the dunes. Questioning is one thing, grinding the rumor mill is quite another.

Are there meetings that are small with only a few individuals –of course there are. Are there calls where there are only a few key players? Of course there are. Business doesn’t get done any other way. Are these back room dealings? Not when the results are made public.

I do my best to make those and many other facts public at my earliest opportunity. We use the newsletter, mass email, and the forums. I used to get involved in a good many debates – everything I say is dissected and picked apart and sometimes taken out of context - once you state your views and the facts it should end there – most of the time it doesn’t. I won’t post on Glamis Dunes.COM for that reason. Nevertheless, some of my posts and private emails end up there anyway. I’ll answer questions, but I can’t devote the time in a debate where I’m out manned 12 to 1 and have to answer 12 posts to my one.

Like the newsletter, I will post only facts and recently have been doing so at the request of Bob Mason, our chairman of the board. Opinion articles are usually labeled just that or are obvious that’s what they are.

There’s a lot of “half information” on Glamis Dunes.COM. That comes from people that are half informed who don’t have the whole picture. My hope in posting just the facts before the rumor mill gets fired up is to help inform everyone what is truly going on and that they see we are taking only logical, practical steps.

There’s no way we can read every post on 2 BBS – so contact us with questions or attend our open meetings. We know what the hot topics and concerns are – that’s why Bob goes through all the trouble to get key people to attend our meetings that you need to ask your questions of. We do if for everyone at Glamis Dunes.COM as well as our members. At the very least, read the recap of it in the ASA newsletter. While some like to down play it as propaganda, it is only ASA telling you what goes on. If we didn’t, would we be accused of another back room meeting?

We’ve never done fundraising before. We’ve never visited with the Secretary of Interior before. We’re doing a lot of things we’ve never done before. I’ll be the first to opine that we are indeed learning as we go.

All that being said, the ASA is not perfect, has made some mistakes, and likely will make more in the future. I apologize for those mistakes past and future. However, overall, we are doing pretty well for a bunch of volunteers that have never been in a fight like this before.
Vincent J. Brunasso
ASA Co-Founder and past president

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--Thomas Jefferson

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Post by Mike330R » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:27 pm

A quick reply: there are people who care what decisions the ASA makes.

And your just starting fund raising?

Will post more when I have time.
Mike

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Post by Mike330R » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:35 pm

Here's a great quote I found on another site a while back. I am quoting him, yes him.
The ASA has a core group of people. Smart people. Professional people. This small group has been very good at portraying themselves as "The voice of the duner". But, they are not really that voice. They are the voice of their core. They have no clue what the duner thinks. And if they stop by Glamisdunes.com and hear that the duner thinks something other than their core, well then it's just ASA bashing.
Like it or not a lot of people feel this way. It looks like more are starting to feel this way. How can the ASA change this perception?

Edited to add a possible solution: is to not think that all issues people will agree with your decisions, but rather ask some of the more vocal members, i.e poll a select group (say from your BBS) and to the general consciences on an issue is.

This is just a suggestion and I doubt the ASA BOD will agree. i have read some many times if you have a problem try and have a resolution while voicing that problem.

*shrug*
Mike

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Post by Poiks » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:05 pm

Any solution to any problem in the dunes will alienate many people. Dune issues are a game of the lesser of at least two evils. There is no amount of communication, pulse-taking or consensus seeking that will prevent some portion of the dune community from disagreeing with every single position the ASA has on every issue.

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Post by Vincent J Brunasso » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:54 pm

A quick reply: there are people who care what decisions the ASA makes.
That's why we try to keep them informed.
And your just starting fund raising?
No, I did not mean that ASA has not been raising funds.

What I mean is that this is the first time for most of us that we've had to consider fundraising and become fundraisers. Sure, there are fundraisers at school and such, but most of us have not been involved in fundraing on this scale until the ASA. I still consider us new at it and not experts by any means.
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