Quad riding help

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Mr Big Wrench
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Quad riding help

Post by Mr Big Wrench » Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:10 pm

The topic about how to crest a dune a few weks ago made me curious.
For you Quad riders out there, How do you handle them?? Reason I ask is a friend dislocated his shoulder crossing a ridge at an angle and I recently came very close to crashing while turning left near the ridge to look over and when I saw it was safe turned right, but went over at an angle and when the quad went from leaning left to leaning right as I went over the top I fell off, luckily the quad high centered and stayed put and did not run me over. I'm still getting used to the extra tire in front.
I have 25+ years of riding experience, mostly bikes in the Desert and a Honda 200X ATC at Dumont/Glamis/Pismo. 3 wheelers seem to turn better while going over or along the top of a ridge. At least that what I have noticed in the past year I have had a quad. I sometimes turn left (or Right) at the top to look over, then go back down and make another run at the ridge and go straight over if it looks safe. Only thing wrong with that method I get separated from My Son and His Bro-in-law and a Friend (All on Quads) and they think I'm too slow since I'm twice there age!! when in reality I just want to be safe when crossing the ridges :oops: :?

Any suggestions will be GREATLY appreciated, I'm going 12/28 and don't want to bring up the rear anymore :lol:
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Post by Greg Hall » Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:22 pm

The two main things that will keep you smooth in the transition is weight shift and throttle.

It is pretty natural for your body position to be forward for turning but as you drop over the edge you need to shift your body position back and uphill, this will allow the front to float down the drop and with your weight uphill, if the front digs in a little it won't toss you over.

The throttle is your other way of keeping the bike heading the right direction, as you transition, don't chop the throttle! You need to either keep it constant or add a little throttle in order to smooth out the drop.

Not really much different than three wheels as long as you have some speed. It is the slow stuff that will get you!
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Post by Fuzzy Knight » Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:08 pm

Well :o
My Daddy told me that "There are Old quad riders and Bold quad riders but NO Old Bold quad riders". It has long been our groups practice that when approching the top of a dune that we have not been over that weekend - we come close to the crest and then turn left or right depending on how we feel - then run the crest to see how it is on the other side the hit the gas and go down at an angle and like Greg says use the throttle to give you direction.
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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:18 am

I'm definitely OLD and Not Bold. I think Greg may have solved my problem, keep the front end lighter and avoid the tire digging in and tossing me over the bars. Like I said I don't have a problem going straight over cause I'm waaaay back on the seat, but when I go over at an angle the downhill tire seems to dig in and pitch me forward because I'm too far forward to start with. Thanks Guys :D
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Post by Washroad » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:38 am

"There are Old quad riders and Bold quad riders but NO Old Bold quad riders".
I think the only other quad rider in here that's older than me is Frankie.

I don't even think about it when I'm transitioning from one side to the other; I just go. My R is such a great handling quad it lets me make rider mistakes but soaks it up 'cause it's a better machine than I am a rider.

Ya gotta get into a "zen" mode; don't think about anything but the ride! Soon, you can just ride.
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Post by FunRunner » Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:51 am

Mr. Big Wrench:
when I go over at an angle the downhill tire seems to dig in and pitch me forward because I'm too far forward to start with. Thanks Guys
maintaining momentum and purpose of direction is as Greg says, the 1st order; the throttle is your friend; I haven't done any quad riding for quite some time, and I'm for sure in the Old school; knowing your equipment is also important; all quads do not handle equally and extra compensatory measures are in order on some. One thing I found to be a big help on the front digging, is the application of STU Razor front tires; they helped big time; I never rode with any of the copycat front tires, but note that the STU's are larger, lighter and more buoyant. The best handling quad I rode was the Honda 250 R, but I didn't have the chance to ride all the bikes; recently rode a Raptor briefly; I wasn't real impressed and it seemed like more work than I remembered; don't imagine it's an age thing, do you? :roll:

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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:08 pm

Your right, It could be an age thing, a lot less Huevos than I used to have.
I used to ride the 200X 3 wheeler in the Zen mode, never even thought about what to do, just did it. Maybe its a Psyche problem and I'm thinking too much about it. It just seems that that extra tire up there (NOT sand tires) makes for a rougher ride during the crossing of the ridges etc.
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Post by Sand Commander » Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:24 pm

I prefer a Quad to a three wheeler for dune transitions. I always thought my three wheeler was more fun to ride, but I am a lot faster duning on a quad. One thing I have changed on my Banshee that has helped on transitions is going to the ITP 12" diameter wheels. They allow me to transition without high centering on the ridge. A slight flick of the handle bars and I am on the other side with no forward momentum lost. I just wish they were not so heavy. I would rather angle over a razor back than take it at a ninety degree angle, that is for sure. However, there are sometimes when one way is preferred over the other.

Shifting your weight, as mentioned, is very important.

And last, but not least- all quad riders kiss mother Glamis from time to time. We who ride in the dunes are better acquainted with Mother Glamis than those who just sit and drive.
She gets lonely from time to time and demands attention. Sometimes it is just a peck on the cheek, and sometimes it is sudden, passionate, with tongue, both cheeks and hurts like H@#* afterward!
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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Sat Dec 20, 2003 1:19 am

Excellent post Quad Commander, I have only been to Mother G 3 times with the new quad, and 2 times on My Sons 440EX, I can't count how many times I rode the old 3 wheeler at Glamis/Dumont/Pismo, I'm in the learning mode right now. I kissed her 4 or 5 times on my Sons WR 426 and XR 650 last time out, lucky they were just a peck on the CHEEK!! :lol:
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Post by OLDMAN » Sat Dec 20, 2003 8:25 am

I think the only other quad rider in here that's older than me is Frankie.
Washroad your still just a kid.
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Post by Sand Commander » Sat Dec 20, 2003 11:29 am

I am 50 years young. A wise old sage once said you are only as old as the women you feel!
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Post by LoBuck » Sat Dec 20, 2003 12:19 pm

Quad Commander wrote:... A wise old sage once said you are only as old as the women you feel!
:-k I thought it was Arnold Swartzeneger that said that. #-o :lol:
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Post by The Oldtimer » Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:20 pm

Washroad sez...
I think the only other quad rider in here that's older than me is Frankie
Could be...I'm 62. :shock:


Fuzzy sez...
My Daddy told me that "There are Old quad riders and Bold quad riders but NO Old Bold quad riders".
With one exception... :lol: :lol:


This works for me...

The throttle is your best friend...especially if you have some power!

Stay vertical with your body...this tends to makes you lean forward going up, lean backward coming down and lean away, or up, from your downhill tire. You are basically acting as a counter-balance to the quad. It's also easier on your body to fall off the back or the side of you bike when going downhill. Combine this with a little weight shifting sideways and/or forward and backward on the seat and just have fun!


I learned to ride on a balloon tire Honda "90".

I have been riding a hopped up TRX 250r for 14+ years...there is no better duning quad anywhere...period!
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Post by Greg Hall » Sat Dec 20, 2003 4:32 pm

The Oldtimer wrote:...there is no better duning quad anywhere...period!
Everything Frankie wrote is spot on......except for this part! :shock:

IMHO, The LT500 was and still is the very best dune quad!

(yep, it is the old Ford v. Chevy kind of debate!)

I sold my 500 a couple of years ago to help finance building the new Jeep but my dad at the ripe old age of 69 still dunes on his LT500, still no slouch on it either!
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Post by The Oldtimer » Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:41 pm

Greg, I have a friend that used to have one of those industrial size beasts...I could whip him in a drag race, beat him up hills, and turn sharper...

The fact that he is also industrial sized didn't hurt! he dressed out at 300+!!

He could tow two bikes at a time with that thing...talk about grunt!!

Too big and heavy for me...but he duned the bejezuz outa that heap!!
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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:03 pm

Never had a chance to ride an LT500, I have ridden just about all the others including the 250R, LT250, Banshee, etc. The R is the best handler of the bunch, but the built Banshee was a blast to ride in a somewhat straight line. I have ridden about all of the Honda 3 wheelers from the ATC70 and balloon wheel 90 on up to the 250R. I guess your only as old as you feel, I guess I'm a Youngster at only 54
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Post by Greg Hall » Sun Dec 21, 2003 1:05 am

The Oldtimer wrote:Greg, I have a friend that used to have one of those industrial size beasts...I could whip him in a drag race, beat him up hills, and turn sharper...

The fact that he is also industrial sized didn't hurt! he dressed out at 300+!!

He could tow two bikes at a time with that thing...talk about grunt!!

Too big and heavy for me...but he duned the bejezuz outa that heap!!
Hmmm....kind of like duning my Jeep!
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Post by Washroad » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:55 am

Well, shoot, I guess I'm not as old as I thought (53) considering what some of you guys are saying! :D

Still gotta give the edge to the R though, imho. Got 2 of 'em here, neither are stock, and when you put my wife on hers, there's just no catching her. :D
Rebuilding hers as we type here; thought it was going to be a simple top-end. Turned out to have a cracked sleeve in the cylinder and bad main bearings. :cry: What I thought was going to cost $200 is now costing almost $700, but it's gonna be really nice when I finish it along with the new paddles I just bought her that she doesn't know about. :D
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Post by FunRunner » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:21 pm

GregHall
my dad at the ripe old age of 69 still dunes on his LT500, still no slouch on it either!
I didn't ride the 500's that much, so never got really used to one; after riding the 3 wheelers and 250R quads, it seemed like the 500 had a little bit more of a mind of it's own; it liked for you to stay kind of quiet and just use the throttle, where the 250R felt more lively and seemed to take to weight changes well.....didn't ride the Banshees a lot either....but sure did like the 250R's.....one thing; when you are riding in a group and most are on 500's and you are on a 250R, you have to remember what you are riding and not get into the 500 style pattern; the 500's have more grunt and you don't want to get bogged on the 250R, so your strategy has to remain to focus on what you are riding.....I guess that's pretty much true of everything in life Image

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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:46 pm

I will get the chance to ride My Sons Honda 440 quad (New Edelbrock carb) this weekend. Maybe I shouldn't, then I'll want to build the stock KFX400!!
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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:26 am

A little late in posting results of Sun, But seems like your suggestions helped :D I spent more time riding and less time thinking and had a great time. I seem to have a problem with sitting too far forward, I moved back a little and front end stays lighter and I was able to hit the crests at an angle and then crank it downhill without any problem. I found myself sitting forward when climbing(Normal), but not moving back as I went over the top, so the front end was too heavy and the downhill tire would dig in. Thanks Guys :wink:
Oh yea, we took the 440EX with new carb out, ran a little lean, changed needles and she ran great, beat some Raptor's, Banshee's and a DS650. A built YFZ450 beat him, but not too bad. More tweaking will iron out some issues.
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Post by The Oldtimer » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:03 pm

Glad we gave you some good advice...!!!

My position on the seat depends on sand conditions...soft sand...back on the seat a little or the front tires will tend to plow. I also tend to sit back in rough stuff so I can pull the front end up to jump those little 1-3 ft drops that can slam you forward if you aren't paying attention!
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Post by Washroad » Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:15 am

Just got back from 6 days out there!
What a sad weekend for our Hondas; 3 250Rs were towed back to camp by a Raptor! :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: Two of them are down for awhile, one of them just shredded a sprocket and was going again in less than an hour.
My wife's ride; doubled the base gaskets and put on the CR head gasket and the little beast RIPS! ! ! ! :D :D Then again, my wife only weighs about a buck 10, but you can't catch her! :D Gotta say the new ITP paddles work very well; lots of good straight ahead hook-up and the slides are much more controlled. I recommend them!
Had a lot of trouble staying out of large closure; most of the stakes are down. Gecko closure still well stacked.
Closer to highway the more chopped the dunes were, further south they got smoother and we really did have some great rides.
So cold at night we couldn't sit by the fire past about 9pm! Love having a m/h with forced-air heat and a TV!
Any trip to Glamis where we all make it back alive is a good trip!!!! :D
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Post by The Oldtimer » Sat Jan 03, 2004 1:08 pm

Wash, I run a CR gasket...why two base gaskets? Is this an easy way to raise the ports a little? Since my motor is already ported, what would this do for me?

Raptor= tow vehicle..well, they have SOME redeeming value after all!! :lol:
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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:10 pm

I have the same questions about 2 base gaskets!! I believe that would lower the overall compression, but the C/R head gasket is thinner and would raise it back some?? If the extra gasket is to raise the ports a little and lower the compression a little, than I guess thats O K. Compression isn't everything when it comes to performance. In 4 strokes they use Cam timing to lower the compression so you can run pump gas, Is that what this does for a 2 stroke??
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Post by Washroad » Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:23 am

I remembered reading about the double base gasket thing several years ago. I didn't start out to do this on this motor, I had to do it. I had taken the cylinder to be bored and found it had a cracked sleeve. They gave me a "replacement" cylinder with a new sleeve and while I'm not an engineer, side by side comparison they looked identical.
It was when I torqued the cylinder down that the engine wouldn't turn! :shock: Loosen the base nuts, it turned. Hmmmm. Says I. Now what? I was wanting to build to stock. Had to get it going. When to Honda, got the gaskets. Doubled the base gasket, torqued, eveything turned! :D (The only thing I can think happened is that the new cylinder had been decked some, and the machinist didn't know and resleeved it and the sleeve was coming into contact with the crank when torqued. ) Slapped on the CR head gasket and everything was fine.
Now, running 91 octane, Amsoil at 50:1, took it easy first tank, did the plug check and then rode the little beast. It was pulling with the ESR 310 in our group, not quite as hard, but with only 110 lbs on it (the ESR had over 200 lbs on!), the ESR couldn't get away from it.
Yes, doubling the base gasket allows for raising the ports and slightly changes the port timing. It allows for a slight increase in fuel that can get into the crankcase and then transfer up to the combustion chamber. With the CR headgasket you don't lose compression, yet the compression won't be all that high, probably aound 175 lbs. and you can run pump gas. This also gives a smoother powerband, not the noticable "hit" that would come on in mid-range, but the power is always there. The lower compression will also allow the motor to rev really high without power falling off.

Frank, if you do this to your ride, you will notice a drop in compression. Also, depending on the porting done to your cylinder, you probably don't even need to consider this. This setup works very well with stock porting or as in this case, "match" porting.

Bob, the double base gasket on a stock motor will lower compression too much unless the CR head gasket is used. This is a very inexpensive (less than $40) way to get a bit more performance from a stocker.

Yeah, the Raptor was one of 3 Yamahoppys we allowed in camp and it had to tow in a Warrior also! Why would anybody want to dune on a Raptor when they tow so well? :lol:
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Post by Astro » Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:30 am

I don't know how you guys got from Dune Riding to base gaskets, but if you look & the stock head gasket for a TRX250R & a CR250R the total thickness of 2 base gaskets & 1 CR head gasket is much thinner than 1 base gasket & 1 TRX head gasket & slightly thinner than 1 base gasket & 1 ATC head gasket. It would ping on pump gas in our 88 TRX250R & I was concerned about the thin head gasket with the differing expansion rates of the iron sleeve & the aluminum cylinder, so we put an ATC250R head gasket back in on the last top end.

Cresting Razorbacks was more fun when most of us had 3 wheels, but the transition can be okay on the 4 wheelers the flows just different. You have to commit more when you drop the tire over on the TRX, when you could keep the front tire on top longer with the ATC.

Have fun ride safe!

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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:54 pm

YEP, you have to commit a little more, found out by accident this weekend at Dumont!! Hauling BUTT along a ridge, Son's Bro in Law is high centered on the lip and Friend's Banshee locks them up to stop soon enough to NOT hit him, Only thing I could do was turn left off a 3' drop, and made it with only a small brown spot in my shorts. I must have been far enough back on the right rear wheel to carry the front end over and NOT dig in the left front tire. Thanks for the advice people, It saved my BUTT this time.
I have found that a Quad requires a little more weight transfer than my old 3 wheeler.
Bob J.

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Post by FunRunner » Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:06 am

Mr. Big Wrench:
I have found that a Quad requires a little more weight transfer than my old 3 wheeler.
I think it depends on the manuever you want to make; 3 wheelers took more transfer to corner; quads generally would take more wgt. back, and in the case Bob cited, back right to unload the front; I have recently had the opportunity to ride a Polaris Predator and a Raptor; both of these are considerably different in feel from the Honda 250R or Suzuki 250 Quads. Each unit has it's own characteristics and a rider has to "tune" his technique to the machine; that is why it is so important to get "the feel" for your ride, and that takes dialing in, each time out. Continue to improve your technique to where you know you can accomplish all the moves necessary to be a good rider and also to avoid circumstances that come up during the ride which require putting your skills to use NOW!

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Post by The Oldtimer » Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:27 am

Tires play a big role in how you can maneuver...my wifes 250r has front and rear "steering" tires...I have front steerers and haulers on the rear. I can turn on a dime on her quad with little effort. Mine requires more muscle and weight shifting, because that sucker wants to go straight with a light front end when I get up on the pipe. I have to pay a little more attention to the throttle. It's not harder...just different.

It's all fun!!
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Post by Mr Big Wrench » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:40 pm

Yep, I agree, more weight transfer front and rear and less right and left, for a quad VS a trike. Just getting used to the difference when I decided 2nd gear up a hill wasn't enough so I put a Yosh SS system/Edelbrock carb/K & N /Pro flo adaptor on it. Now 3rd gear wheelies are an option. 8)
Bob J.

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Post by valen76 » Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:13 pm

Brian,

Thats because I was not on the throttle all the way. It is hard to turn with the front wheels in the air. :lol: I have to sit on the gas tank to try to keep the front end down, so I don't have the problem with transitioning the ridges. Weight transfer and throttle are the keys along with experience. I have to rely on power and a light front end. I have only been duning for a few years but atving for many. I cannot stand to go slow over the ridges. If I get back out to the dunes before I deploy to Iraq or Afganistan or where ever I will let you ride my baby and you will know what I mean. Yes that was a sad day for the Rs...

Darrin

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