Dumping Grey Water - Legal?

Be safe and prepared.

Moderator: Sitewide Forum Moderators

RichB
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 6:32 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Lost Wages

Dumping Grey Water - Legal?

Post by RichB » Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:43 pm

Just curious on something.

I swear my neighbor got a serious warning from the San Bernardino Sheriff's dept out at Dumont one time for dumping his Grey tank. Does anyone know if Cali State or BLM has a law that covers not being able to dump grey?

Thanks,
ASA Member

User avatar
SANDMAN
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 10:14 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA

Post by SANDMAN » Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:56 pm

Its illegal to dump your gray tank...
but outdoor showers are legal... :?
I never understood this one...
other than the volume of dumping your gray tank.
Pete De Palma
What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?

RichB
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 6:32 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Lost Wages

Post by RichB » Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:33 pm

Is that Calif law?
ASA Member

User avatar
Crowdog
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 2121
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 9:57 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Shingle Springs, CA
Contact:

Post by Crowdog » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:02 pm

Sand Mountain (Nevada) just added that to their rules last year.

Jon

V8rail
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2000 6:37 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Post by V8rail » Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:34 pm

Rich,

It is legal to dump gray water at Dumont ...

why?

It is not a environmental problem...
and there is no way to enforce that rule ...

When the sheriff was writing up the ticket for gray water dumping, it is easy to fight ... The rule is posted in the BLM flyer :wink:

Thomas
Thomas

When your engine is not in front, you must be behind !


V8rail
Friends of Dumont Dunes

RichB
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1573
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2001 6:32 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Lost Wages

Post by RichB » Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:29 pm

Thomas.

Alright now I'm confused. If it's legal how can you get a ticket? Why would it be easy to fight, please expound?

Thanks,

Rich
ASA Member

V8rail
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2000 6:37 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Post by V8rail » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:06 pm

Rich,

sorry, I did not read your first message .... your friend got a serious warning, not a ticket ....

he got that warning from a sheriff that did not know it better ... so go by the BLM camp and tell them your (your friends) problem and it will be corrected ....

I was thinking he got a ticket .... when he (or you) get a ticket for gray water dumping .... you have no problem to show the BLM flyer and show them that you did nothing illegal ....

hope that clears it up :wink:
Thomas

When your engine is not in front, you must be behind !


V8rail
Friends of Dumont Dunes

User avatar
RX 4 INSANDITY
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 8:37 pm
antispam: NO
Please enter the middle number: 7
Location: Lakeside, CA

Post by RX 4 INSANDITY » Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:40 pm

I have attached the rules of the ISDRA that I copied from the BLM - El Centro Web Site. It is against the rules to dump Grey Water - see highlighted text. I am not sure if this is just another existing rule that is not enforced?


IMPERIAL SAND DUNES RECREATION AREA
RULES AND REGULATIONS

Rules are designed to promote public safety in the Imperial Sand Dunes and have been in effect since 1983. PLEASE REMEMBER, IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO KNOW THE LAW. These rules apply to public lands within the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area.

SAFETY FLAGS ARE REQUIRED ON ALL VEHICLES IN THE IMPERIAL SAND DUNES RECREATION AREA (This includes two-wheeled motorcycles.) All vehicles shall be equipped with an 8 foot whip mast and a 6x12 inch red/orange flag. Flags may be of pennant, triangle, square, or rectangular shape. Masts must be securely mounted on the vehicle and extend 8 feet from the ground to the mast tip. Safety flags must be attached within 10 inches of the tip of the whip mast with club or other flags mounted below safety flag or on another whip.

A 15 MPH SPEED RULE EXISTS ON THE SAND HIGHWAYS. No person shall operate an OHV in excess of 15 mph on public lands within 500 feet of Highway 78, Grays Well Road, Gecko Road and access roads within the Gecko and Roadrunner recreation sites.

FIRES The burning of potentially hazardous materials e.g.(but not limited to) gas, oil, plastic and magnesium is prohibited.

NO GLASS BEVERAGE CONTAINERS ARE ALLOWED. Possession or use of any glass, cup or bottle, empty or not, used for carrying any liquid for drinking purposes is prohibited. Persons may pick up glass beverage containers discarded by others to remove for deposit in approved trash receptacles.

NO ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES ALLOWED WHILE RIDING ON BLM LANDS. No person shall drink an alcoholic beverage, have in their possession or on their person any open container that contains an alcoholic beverage while operating in or on a motor vehicle or OHV on public lands administered by BLM within California. NO PERSON UNDER AGE 21 SHALL BE IN POSSESSION OF ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES.

USE OF AUDIO DEVICES. No person shall operate or use any audio, such as a radio, television, musical instrument, or other noise producing device or motorized equipment between the hours of 10 pm and 6 am in a manner that makes unreasonable noise that disturbs other visitors; or operate or use a public address system without written authorization from BLM.

PUBLIC NUDITY. Public nudity is prohibited in the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area.

UNAUTHORIZED ORGANIZED EVENT. No person shall participate in or sponsor an unauthorized organized event (Example bands, videos, movies etc ).

RIDING IN PICKUP BEDS AND OTHER UNSAFE ACTIVITIES. No person shall ride in the bed of a pick up truck or any part of a motor vehicle not designed for passengers on or off road.

Reserving of camping spaces is prohibited; sites are allocated on a first come/first serve basis.

Taking off or landing of aircraft, including ultralights, is prohibited within 1 mile of Gecko Road.


Dumping of sewage and gray water is prohibited.

A 14 day camping limit is in effect in the Imperial Sand Dunes Recreation Area.

No parking or camping within 10 feet of pavement on Gecko Road.

Shooting is prohibited within 1/2 mile of formal campgrounds and should be conducted well away from other concentrations of people and property.

Animals must be kept on a leash not longer than six feet and secured to a fixed object or under the control of a person, or otherwise physically restricted at all times. (43 CFR 87365.2-1{c})

BLM supplementary rules reestablished under authority of 43 CFR 8365.1-6. Violations of the rules are punishable by a fine not to exceed $1,000 and/or imprisonment not to exceed 12 months (43 CFR 8360.0-7). Also, all OHVs must be operated in accordance with State laws and regulations relating to use, registration, operation, and inspection of OHVs(43 CFR 8341.1{a}).

14 Nov 01

State of California OHV Laws

Bureau of Land Management
El Centro Field Office
1661 South Fourth Street
El Centro CA 92243
Phone: (760) 337-4400
Fax: (760) 337-4490


--Mike
Offroading and Concern for the Environment are NOT Mutually Exclusive

V8rail
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2000 6:37 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Post by V8rail » Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:14 pm

Mike,

I forgot to mention that I talk about Dumont ...

Dumont --> gray water dumping is legal
ISDRA --> it is illegal

see also Friends of Dumont Dunes
Thomas

When your engine is not in front, you must be behind !


V8rail
Friends of Dumont Dunes

Mike Ingoglia
3rd Gear Member
3rd Gear Member
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:37 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA

Post by Mike Ingoglia » Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:47 pm

I think the gray tank issue is more an issue of quantity of water rather than the actual dumping. I've talked to a BLM guy about this one time and he said he and most other BLM don't really care as long as you're not flooding everyone out and use soaps that aren't bad for the environment.

On a longer stay, or a trip with a lot of people I'll dig a small trench under my gray tank and let the water trickle out at a very slow rate... after a few hours it would of dumped about 10-15 gallons... that's how slow I let it trickle... this hasn't cause me a problem. . . however I always do this at night so it's not obvious...

User avatar
Poiks
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 2850
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:52 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Post by Poiks » Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:49 pm

SANDMAN wrote:Its illegal to dump your gray tank...
but outdoor showers are legal... :?
I never understood this one...
other than the volume of dumping your gray tank.
I always assumed it's because you could pee in the shower, and thus dump urine from the gray tank.

User avatar
quad1100
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1188
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2002 10:49 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Post by quad1100 » Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:03 pm

Well I went to the Dumont website http://www.ca.blm.gov/barstow/dumont.html and right there in the rules was this. Doesn't look legal to me.
Rules and Regulations:
All vehicles must have a muffler or spark arrester and have either a street-legal license or be registered as an off-highway vehicle.

All OHVs must have a mast and flag for visibility in the dunes.

Vehicles operated at night must use both headlights and taillights.

Helmets are required to be worn by all riders of ATVs.

Only one person at a time is allowed on an ATV.

Possession or use of any glass container, empty or not, used for carrying any liquid for drinking purposes is prohibited (43 CFR 8361.1-6).

Camping is allowed anywhere within the riding area as long as it does not block travel on a road, and is limited to a 14-day stay.

SHOOTING IS NOT PERMITTED within this area..

Draining of holding tanks, littering, or dumping of trash is prohibited

V8rail
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2000 6:37 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Post by V8rail » Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:43 pm

quad1100 wrote:Well I went to the Dumont website http://www.ca.blm.gov/barstow/dumont.html and right there in the rules was this. Doesn't look legal to me.

from the BLM flyer :
There are no trash collection or holding tank dump station facilities. All trash and black water must be taken out when leaving.

but best would be when you would call Mike Ahrens ... he will tell you the correct answer :wink: ....
Thomas

When your engine is not in front, you must be behind !


V8rail
Friends of Dumont Dunes

User avatar
Winston Cup
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2000 11:05 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: High Desert

Post by Winston Cup » Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:04 am

quad1100 wrote:Well I went to the Dumont website http://www.ca.blm.gov/barstow/dumont.html and right there in the rules was this. Doesn't look legal to me.
Rules and Regulations:
All vehicles must have a muffler or spark arrester and have either a street-legal license or be registered as an off-highway vehicle.

All OHVs must have a mast and flag for visibility in the dunes.

Vehicles operated at night must use both headlights and taillights.

Helmets are required to be worn by all riders of ATVs.

Only one person at a time is allowed on an ATV.

Possession or use of any glass container, empty or not, used for carrying any liquid for drinking purposes is prohibited (43 CFR 8361.1-6).

Camping is allowed anywhere within the riding area as long as it does not block travel on a road, and is limited to a 14-day stay.

SHOOTING IS NOT PERMITTED within this area..

Draining of holding tanks, littering, or dumping of trash is prohibited
Gotta agree with quad1100 here. Based on the rules he found listed on the BLM site, it looks pretty clear to me that dumping of grey water from a holding tank is illegal. I don't see how it could be much more clear than that. Now they may not enforce it, but it clearly says it's illegal.
Guy Chrest

Image

V8rail
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2000 6:37 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Post by V8rail » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:58 am

Guy,

call Mike Ahrens .. he will tell you :shock: :wink:
Thomas

When your engine is not in front, you must be behind !


V8rail
Friends of Dumont Dunes

User avatar
schraderrl
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 907
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 6:42 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA

Post by schraderrl » Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:07 am

I always assumed it's because you could pee in the shower, and thus dump urine from the gray tank.
PIZ' EN WATER
:lol:

User avatar
Brian_A
4th Gear Member
4th Gear Member
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:43 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Katy, Texas

Post by Brian_A » Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:26 pm

I always assumed it's because you could pee in the shower, and thus dump urine from the gray tank.
So if I do my business in the bushes I must be environmentally friendly? I never have quite understood the rules. If I was camping in a tent with no facilities nearby where would the waste be going? Outside showers, washing dishes, brushing your teeth etc. It all goes on the ground. But if I put it in a tank first it becomes toxic waste. I think the hikers should have to carry all their waste out with them as well, after all fair is fair.
I have periodlcally used the same method as Mike described with my grey tank, without any issues. As a matter of fact I have found that the number of plants growing in the area I camp in has grow significantly. On a week long stay its impossible not to fill a greywater tank up.

User avatar
LoBuck
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6786
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:48 am
antispam: NO
Please enter the middle number: 7
Location: Yuma, AZ
Contact:

Post by LoBuck » Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:26 am

Brian_A wrote:I think the hikers should have to carry all their waste out with them as well, after all fair is fair.
Not as odd as you might think. I've heard of places that have that very requirement. Bag it up and pack it out.
Glenn Montgomery - KE7BTP
'79 CJ5
http://www.YumaDuners.com - LoBuck's Web Page
DAC ISDRA Sub Group Member - AZ OHV Rep BLM ISDRA DSG webpage

User avatar
Winston Cup
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2000 11:05 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: High Desert

Post by Winston Cup » Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:22 am

I think the concern regarding dumping grey water holding tanks may be the common practice of adding deodorizing chemicals to the holding tanks.
Guy Chrest

Image

User avatar
Brian_A
4th Gear Member
4th Gear Member
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:43 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Katy, Texas

Post by Brian_A » Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:22 pm

It may have to do with chemical additives, however many of those additives are also non-toxic. I nevr drank any to find out, but that's what the bottle said.

User avatar
Winston Cup
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2000 11:05 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: High Desert

Post by Winston Cup » Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:34 pm

Brian_A wrote:On a week long stay its impossible not to fill a greywater tank up.
True, but your likely not going to over fill the grey water tank unless your carrying additional water beyond the capacity of your fresh water tank.
Guy Chrest

Image

User avatar
BHenry
Bulletin Board Administrator
Bulletin Board Administrator
Posts: 2730
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 3:41 pm
antispam: NO
Please enter the middle number: 7
Location: Surface...err...Valley of the Sun

Post by BHenry » Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:15 am

Guy Chrest wrote:
Brian_A wrote:On a week long stay its impossible not to fill a greywater tank up.
True, but your likely not going to over fill the grey water tank unless your carrying additional water beyond the capacity of your fresh water tank.
Or your trailer manufacturer does something stupid like give you only 15gal grey/15gal black with 45gal fresh
I'll relinquish my right to ride when you relinquish your right to breathe
Bryan Henry
KG6OQD

User avatar
Winston Cup
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2000 11:05 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: High Desert

Post by Winston Cup » Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:05 am

BHenry wrote:
Guy Chrest wrote:
Brian_A wrote:On a week long stay its impossible not to fill a greywater tank up.
True, but your likely not going to over fill the grey water tank unless your carrying additional water beyond the capacity of your fresh water tank.
Or your trailer manufacturer does something stupid like give you only 15gal grey/15gal black with 45gal fresh
Assuming that someone with plans to camp for a week at a time is stupid enough to purchase a trailer with those particular holding tank specs, which is obviously not equiped to handle their needs.
Guy Chrest

Image

OBSESSED
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 5566
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2000 8:17 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Sand City, USA
Contact:

Post by OBSESSED » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:16 pm

Guy Chrest wrote:
BHenry wrote:
Guy Chrest wrote: True, but your likely not going to over fill the grey water tank unless your carrying additional water beyond the capacity of your fresh water tank.
Or your trailer manufacturer does something stupid like give you only 15gal grey/15gal black with 45gal fresh
Assuming that someone with plans to camp for a week at a time is stupid enough to purchase a trailer with those particular holding tank specs, which is obviously not equiped to handle their needs.
My MoHo

Dealer Said it had an 80 gallon water tank. (last MoHo had only a 40 and I'd run out every weekend-even not taking shower :? )
I have never come close to running out! I was thinking of filling it 5 gallons at a time from a jug to really see what I have.
Last time to dunes took 2 showers/wife took 2 and two co-campers took one.
Brought home 3/4ths of a tank. (Sighting tank on conpartment opening)
Gauge said still full.

BUT holding tanks only are 45 gallons gray and black (both).
It's hard :shock: to poo :oops: 45 gallons worth :P
But with all those showers we just let it drip drip drip out. Until the last day, then I close the valve. Water dripping on ground doesn't hurt anyone or thing does it?
I'll stop if it does! :lol:

User avatar
AlxCook
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2000 11:10 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Canyon Lake, Ca
Contact:

Post by AlxCook » Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:33 pm

as for holding tanks, many Mohos and trailers, the sink in the bathroom runs into the black water tank. Take a look.
Alex

Member of DUNERs, ASA, CORVA, SDORC, BRC, and the human race

Voice
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:56 am

Post by Voice » Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:41 pm

Some "opinions" on grey water.
This topic caught my interest so I did a little research. I was looking for an actual California Law which dealt with the issue and I came up empty.
But, I found some interesting articles concerning Grey water.
Here are a few points to ponder when you're digging that hole to dump your grey water into before you head home.

Grey water is not just soap and water. It could contain bacteria, feces, chemicals (maybe), urine, contanimated meat and who knows what else. Did you wash your chicken in your sink? Do you clean thourghly when you shower? Do you add chemical fresheners? Bleach?

What would Gecko look like if 30,000 RV's all dumped their grey water on Sunday before heading home?

Human feces (I'm thinking, I'm no expert) is more dangerous then animal feces. It contains many very hazardous bacterias like E-coli.

Grey water stinks terribly when it is standing.

It is against the law to dump grey water in the ISDRA. Even if it is inadaquatly enforced, it is still the law.

I also believe that it is against the law to drain your grey water, or even fresh water while driving down the road, not to mention how inconsiderate it is to the drivers behind you. (I could not find this law. If anyone can I would appreciate it.)

Anyway, those are just a few observations I had after doing a bit of light reading on the subject while using the search terms

Code: Select all

"Grey Water" or "Gray water" and "Holding tank"
I also found that there is a movement trying to get grey water recycling for homes, for use in gardens and lawns and such.

Also, I would guess that an outdoor shower skirts by on a technicality. I'm guessing that in the eyes of the law, grey water does not become "grey water" until it gets into a holding tank.

Brian
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

Image

User avatar
Winston Cup
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 4270
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2000 11:05 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: High Desert

Post by Winston Cup » Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:38 pm

Very good explaination Brian, makes sense. Thanks
Guy Chrest

Image

User avatar
Crowdog
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 2121
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 9:57 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Shingle Springs, CA
Contact:

Post by Crowdog » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:29 pm

Brian,

According to the explanation given to me by BLM for Sand Mountain, grey water is liquid that comes from a holding tank. So, you can take a shower, brush your teeth and wash your pots & pans outside....

Jon

Voice
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:56 am

Post by Voice » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:04 pm

Yep, that's kinda what I was thinking.
But, interestingly enough, when I did the search I discovered that the term "Grey Water" is used to refer to "sink" water, "bath" water and basicly any water that is not "sewage" but is not "potable".

There were many discussions of using houshold "grey water" for gardens and lawns and how to do so safely. These sites did not refer to the grey water comming from a holding tank.

Also, although I have always disliked the practice of dumping grey water on the ground I never really had a good argument against it. Then I read about the possibilities of harmful bacteria and it made sense. I mean, who would have thought twice about washing a chicken in the sink and then dumping the sink water on the ground... yet, would you eat after handling a raw chicken? And tiny bits of fecal matter which will go down the shower drain...
Opened my eyes!

Brian
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

Image

Sandemon
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 950
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 7:10 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA

Post by Sandemon » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:35 pm

Voice, Acording to the Ca Vehicle Code there are 2 things that can be spilled onto the highway. Clean water and Feathers from live birds. I do not have the Vehicle Code in front of me but it is a question on the Com. licence test. :twisted: 8) :)
The ORIGINAL Sandemon
Member of D.U.N.E.R.
Go Hard or Go HomePick Up Your Trash

LTZ 400
4th Gear Member
4th Gear Member
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 8:33 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Yucca Valley

Post by LTZ 400 » Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:42 pm

tiny bits of fecal matter which will go down the shower drain...
I don't know how you shower, Brian, but you might want to change your habits. :oops:

Grey water is from your sinks and shower. Black water is from the toilet.
Do I dump my grey water on the ground? No, I dig a hole first and let it drain slowly so it sinks in.
I wait until I get home to dump the black water and the remainder of the grey tank. I have a dump station at home.
Also at home I have a grey water setup from my washing machine. This waters several trees for me.

David

User avatar
BigRick
3rd Gear Member
3rd Gear Member
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 11:07 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Winnetka

Post by BigRick » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:33 pm

LTZ 400 wrote:
tiny bits of fecal matter which will go down the shower drain...
I don't know how you shower, Brian, but you might want to change your habits. :oops:
Time to check for skid marks :!:
Most of us have had them after riding,sand, and scratching that itch. :idea:
Acording to the Ca Vehicle Code there are 2 things that can be spilled onto the highway. Clean water and Feathers from live birds. I do not have the Vehicle Code in front of me but it is a question on the Com. licence test.

Spilling Loads and Damage to Highway.


(VC §§23114 and 23115) It is against the law to operate on the highway a vehicle which is improperly covered, constructed, or loaded so that any part of its contents or load spills, drops, leaks, blows, sifts, or in any other way escapes from the vehicle. (Exception: clear water or feathers from live birds.)

Just make sure those birds are live :lol:

Maybe if i can show my grey water is clear :idea: NO I guess not :?:
But I can still dump feathers.

jm102397
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1157
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 5:07 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by jm102397 » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:15 am

David-
Brian has some good points. Even if it sinks in, it's still there, just slightly underground-sure don't want to think of the kids digging there and playing in it :(
Julie Monroe

OBSESSED
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 5566
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2000 8:17 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Sand City, USA
Contact:

Post by OBSESSED » Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:12 am

jm102397 wrote:David-
Brian has some good points. Even if it sinks in, it's still there, just slightly underground-sure don't want to think of the kids digging there and playing in it :(
:lol: Julie

Those of us that have ever taken a leak at the back of our trailer (near the ice chest) when we go to grab another, say "ahye!"

Grey water from my non held dripping holding tank is much cleaner fresher clearer than anything my dog (and myself) or your dog leaves on the ground.

Maybe the kids should be issued rubber gloves?

Come to think of it, all that chicken washing going on would explain why Roxy digs and eats the sand??!!

SB

User avatar
AlxCook
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2000 11:10 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Canyon Lake, Ca
Contact:

Post by AlxCook » Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:24 am

Just create a bypass valve so your grey water never goes into the tank, goes directly to ground, that would bypass the law???

And if everyone is really concerned about grey water, what about recycled water used to water golf courses, parks, and other green belts. Or what about how Las Vegas dumps a good percentage of it treated sewage into Lake Mead? Or how about everyone that takes a leak in the Colorado River, only to drink the same water when they get home?

My belief, as long as the grey water is not sitting in the tank, and then being released, it shouldn't pose a problem. So leaving your valve cracked open to allow water to drain at a slow pace, shouldn't pose a problem to the environment.
Alex

Member of DUNERs, ASA, CORVA, SDORC, BRC, and the human race

User avatar
LoBuck
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6786
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:48 am
antispam: NO
Please enter the middle number: 7
Location: Yuma, AZ
Contact:

Post by LoBuck » Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:16 pm

A. Cook wrote: Or what about how Las Vegas dumps a good percentage of it treated sewage into Lake Mead? Or how about everyone that takes a leak in the Colorado River, only to drink the same water when they get home?
:shock: Ahh man, why'd you have to say that? Are you kidding me? Geez... 38 years of living in Yuma and drinking Colorado River water. aack! Ptew! No more straight water for me... Iced tea or coffee, yeah that's the ticket :wink:
Glenn Montgomery - KE7BTP
'79 CJ5
http://www.YumaDuners.com - LoBuck's Web Page
DAC ISDRA Sub Group Member - AZ OHV Rep BLM ISDRA DSG webpage

Voice
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:56 am

Post by Voice » Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:50 pm

This still doesn't address the issue of having 30,000 rigs all dump their grey water in one small area (gecko)..

I'm not trying to say it's either right or wrong... I don't have a grey water tank... I was just offering up some reasons against the practice.

And by the way, I belive it is illegal to urinate/deficate in a public place, also!

Brian
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

Image

L&L Corvairs
ASA Board Member
ASA Board Member
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2002 6:29 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Ontario, Calif.

Post by L&L Corvairs » Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:20 pm

I think Brian has brought up some very good points. Certainly something to think about as we prepare to clean, stuff and cook our TG turkeys next week.

However, that isn't going to stop me from doing the same as everyone else. Our grey tank can go for about 5 days. When we go for more then that, I drain off what I have to, and carry the rest to a dump station.

As for all the 30,000 MoHo's that may (probably) dump their grey water out at the ISDRA...well....it's been going on like that for over 30 years.......I don't see measurable damage now. An not going to worry about the kids either.

Christ...if we want cradle to the grave security....might as well move to Cuba...or China...(since the USSR ain't around anymore)

PS On big weekends, there has been a mobile "Dump Truck" that, for a fee, will empty your tanks for you. Have used them before. Great idea.
L&L
It is not ours to decide the times in which we live.
It is only ours to decide what to do with the time given us.

Make the most of your time.

Sandemon
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 950
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 7:10 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: USA

Post by Sandemon » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:51 pm

And by the way, I belive it is illegal to urinate/deficate in a public place, also!
You do not want to get caught for this as you can be convicted of Indecent exposer and be forced to register as a sex offender :( :twisted: 8)
The ORIGINAL Sandemon
Member of D.U.N.E.R.
Go Hard or Go HomePick Up Your Trash

Voice
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:56 am

Post by Voice » Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:03 pm

Interesting observation:
I think it is interesting that this thread which has many people espousing the "breaking of the rules" with many different explainations is right next to the thread talking about "setting an example" by not breaking the rules.

;)

Brian
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

Image

L&L Corvairs
ASA Board Member
ASA Board Member
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2002 6:29 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Ontario, Calif.

Post by L&L Corvairs » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:59 am

Voice wrote:Interesting observation:
I think it is interesting that this thread which has many people espousing the "breaking of the rules" with many different explainations is right next to the thread talking about "setting an example" by not breaking the rules.
Of course Brian.

We can't get up in the morning, brush our teeth, get dressed, back out of the driveway and get to work without breaking some kind of 'rule' or 'law'.

A lot of them we don't even think or know about. As a society, we are over regulated to death. I can't even have a non-operable vehicle parked in my driveway. :P (Against City ordinance)

This state alone passes and implements over 1000 new laws each year.

It's not possible to obey all the rules, laws and regulations that exist today. Somewhere in the middle is what I believe is 'practical, common sense'. Most of us use it everyday, all the time.

Stop by my camp this TG and we can discuss it over a bottle of cold refreshment. :D
L&L
It is not ours to decide the times in which we live.
It is only ours to decide what to do with the time given us.

Make the most of your time.

Voice
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
7th Gear "No Brakes" Member
Posts: 2599
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:56 am

Post by Voice » Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:50 am

And I completely agree, (and have been a strong opponent of "Zero Tolerance" because of this)...
I just thought that this was a perfect thread to make that point. :D
There are many around here who have tried to espouse a "we must obey the law, regardless" or, "if you've done nothing wrong you've got nothing to worry about." mentality. The fact is that under the law just about everyone has "done something wrong"... and we all have something to worry about.

The way I would prefer to personally deal with the issue of grey water myself is to communicate with the person who was doing the dumping.
If I can smell it, if it puddles near my camp, if it was near my dog then I very well might just politely ask whoever it was to stop. There really is no need for a law in this manor, though I happen to agree with the "rule" that prevents dumping grey water at the ISDRA.

Brian
Mahmoud Ahmedinejad in a letter to President Elect Barak Obama
"May God Almighty ... bless the leaders of societies with the courage to learn from the mistakes of predecessors,"
"I hope that you will be able to take fullest advantage of the opportunity to serve and leave behind a positive legacy."

Image

User avatar
AlxCook
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
6th Gear "Wide Open" Member
Posts: 1255
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2000 11:10 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Canyon Lake, Ca
Contact:

Post by AlxCook » Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:19 pm

Dumping grey water gets done, as long as it isn't abused it shouldn't be a problem. If my Grey Water was smelling and bothering you, and you said something, I would stop it immediately. Actually if it pooling in my camp or smelling I will stop. Allowing your tanks to fill over 5 days and then releasing it is the problem, it stinks and certainly has some bad bacteria. When you get there (first day), and crack the valve so that water is dripping out, it never smells and doesn't pool.

Some basic math, my WW holds 110 gallons of fresh water. Black water tank is 35 Gallons???? and grey water is 35 gallons???, so I only have holding tanks for 70 gallons, do they expect me to drink the other 40 gallons of water?? And who drinks that water anyhow?
Alex

Member of DUNERs, ASA, CORVA, SDORC, BRC, and the human race

LTZ 400
4th Gear Member
4th Gear Member
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 8:33 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Yucca Valley

Post by LTZ 400 » Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:41 am

Stop by my camp this TG and we can discuss it over a bottle of cold refreshment.
There ya go breaking ANOTHER law. :lol:
Better turn that bottle into a can. :twisted:

David

L&L Corvairs
ASA Board Member
ASA Board Member
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2002 6:29 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Ontario, Calif.

Post by L&L Corvairs » Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:26 am

LTZ 400 wrote:
Stop by my camp this TG and we can discuss it over a bottle of cold refreshment.
There ya go breaking ANOTHER law. :lol:
Better turn that bottle into a can. :twisted:

David
I was wondering if anyone would catch that. :D
At least ya got my point.

(There is some stuff that JUSTdoesn't come in cans :P)

But only cans go out for a ride in the dunes. :wink:
L&L
It is not ours to decide the times in which we live.
It is only ours to decide what to do with the time given us.

Make the most of your time.

User avatar
Larry Jowdy
ASA Forum Administrator
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2000 8:13 pm
antispam: NO
Please enter the middle number: 7
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Larry Jowdy » Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:40 am

An interesting topic,

Calif. Penal code section 374.3 states that it's illegal to dump any waste matter on public or private land. It's also covered in Federal law.

Thomas, the Calif. Penal code applies to Dumont as do the Federal laws.

Becasue it's not enforced doesn't mean that it's legal.

Additionally, if you go to the BLM page from the Barstow office Dumont web page, it clearly states that it's illegal to dump holding tanks.

Since grey water is in a holding tank, I can only assume that it's illegal.

I'm surprized that Mike Aherns would say that it's legal. But of course, we're dealing with the BLM and they are not always right, are they???

http://www.ca.blm.gov/barstow/dumont.html

I've seen the Rangers at Gecko and Roadrunner issuing citations for people that have a stretched out garden hose attached to their drains. I've also seen the rangers warn the violators rather than issuing a citation.

I've also seen the "smart" campers that leave the hose coiled up under their rigs and only extend the hose after dark.

Brian is correct, many polutants go into the grey water tank.

LL is also correct, dumping grey water has been going on for 40 years.

Lately, I've seen many people with those blue poop buckets emptying their tanks then dumping it down the pit toilet, I'm not sure if it's legal but it's got to be better than dumping it on the ground.

This brings up the subject of a dump station at the dunes.

Don't hold your breath because it probably won't ever happen.

Too many restrictions too many hoops to jump through and way too much money both for the sewer and the required pumping.
Last edited by Larry Jowdy on Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

L&L Corvairs
ASA Board Member
ASA Board Member
Posts: 1631
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2002 6:29 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Ontario, Calif.

Post by L&L Corvairs » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:18 am

Too bad about the dump station.

That would be a good thing.
L&L
It is not ours to decide the times in which we live.
It is only ours to decide what to do with the time given us.

Make the most of your time.

Astro
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:37 am
Please enter the middle number: 5
Location: Clarkdale, Arizona

Post by Astro » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:08 pm

I don't mind hauling out what we haul in, but why do the Trailer & MoHo Mfg's do things like 100 gallons of fresh 40 gallons of Black & 40 gallons of grey? Give or take they all seem to have the same flawed math. You never use as much black as grey & the total out is less than the in even if it were equal. I use the grey to help flush the black out of the hose & the pipe when I dump @ the station. It gets pretty full after a few days with the 4 of us no matter how careful we try to be conserving water. I did catch the kids playing in another families grey water with thier kids once & had to explain it wasn't like the wet sand @ the beach (some beaches) & that they all needed to stay out of it.

Astro 8)
"Just Ride!"

V8rail
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
5th Gear "Pinned" Member
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2000 6:37 pm
Please enter the middle number: 5
Contact:

Post by V8rail » Fri Nov 28, 2003 1:37 pm

Larry Jowdy TRT wrote: Thomas, the Calif. Penal code applies to Dumont as do the Federal laws.

Becasue it's not enforced doesn't mean that it's legal.
Larry,

I'm not stupid ... :shock:

IT IS LEGAL ... so there is nothing to enforce :wink:

call Mike Ahrens :wink:
Larry Jowdy TRT wrote:
Additionally, if you go to the BLM page from the Barstow office Dumont web page, it clearly states that it's illegal to dump holding tanks.

Since grey water is in a holding tank, I can only assume that it's illegal.

I'm surprized that Mike Aherns would say that it's legal. But of course, we're dealing with the BLM and they are not always right, are they???

http://www.ca.blm.gov/barstow/dumont.html
that's now about the fifth time this link is posted ... here again the link what the official BLM Dumont Flyer says :(I can send you a some when you like)

http://ca4fun.com/n_fodd/modules.php?na ... age&pid=12

And Mike is may smarter then you think :lol: call him and he will clear it up for you

for the record I haul out my gray and black. I have bigger holding tanks then fresh water tank
Thomas

When your engine is not in front, you must be behind !


V8rail
Friends of Dumont Dunes

User avatar
Larry Jowdy
ASA Forum Administrator
Posts: 1022
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2000 8:13 pm
antispam: NO
Please enter the middle number: 7
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Larry Jowdy » Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:56 pm

THOMAS,

I apologize if you thought that my reply insinuated that you are stupid,

That wasn't my intent when posting.

But, in my opinion I still believe that you're mis-informed about dumping grey water.

California law clearly prohibits dumping and also, the last line on the BLM's Dumont site clearly states that it's illegal to dump.
Draining of holding tanks, littering, or dumping of trash is prohibited

I still can't believe that Mike would say that it's legal but, just for the record, I'll call him on Monday, I know him well, as he was the original Chairman of the first TRT.

I'll let you know what he said.

Post Reply

Return to “Dune Safety • Survival • Camping”