Brawl on the Beach

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Brawl on the Beach

Post by alyshka » Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:40 pm

For those who don't get San Diego stations. This makes the UAs at OLDS seem mellow.

http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.p ... tID=101663
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Post by Woodglue » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:12 pm

:shock: Wow, geez....
I mean, the video was one thing, but man I can't belive it...
alyshka posted a link.... better yet, a Video-Link!!!

Wow! :shock:
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Post by Woodglue » Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:37 pm

Ok, the brawl was pretty surprising too. :wink:
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Post by LoBuck » Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:43 pm

There are a bunch of links here. This video from KUSI provides a lot of details.

Talk about total kaos. :shock:
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Post by BakerKlan » Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:58 pm

Did I miss something? Looked rather tame to me
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Post by gelwell » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:37 am

Before getting custody of my kids, I lived 6 years in Mission Beach. The summer holidays are a nightmare. The 4th being the worst. In years past most holidays are pretty timid, but this incident is going to get alcohol of the beaches in SD. I am not in favor of this but I also understand why people are getting pretty fed up. I had broken bottles, puke and lots of trash from these big weekends and the residents are stuck with picking up the mess. I know it goes with the territory but it gets back to "You haul it in you haul it out".
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Post by Glamisbound » Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:44 am

BakerKlan wrote:Did I miss something? Looked rather tame to me
In the grand scheme of things, it was! It definitely could have turned very ugly for the first 5-6 officers on scene had the crowd decided to attack.

Who was at HB in the mid 80's? I was there. Now that was out of control!!!
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Post by djw » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:27 pm

Who was at HB in the mid 80's? I was there. Now that was out of control!!!
The ol' FSU crew.
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Post by Voice » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:32 pm

I pretty much saw the same thing that is normal at Olds...
Basically the cops tried to keep a low profile while things escallated... then when things got totally out of hand they overreacted, tried to push the crowd around, the crowd pushed back and all of a sudden it's a "problem".

This country is getting very close to a new form of "prohibition" and it really bothers me alot.

Look, DRINKING is legal. Being drunk and disorderly is NOT.
What this boils down to is the cops cannot adequately patrol the area so they want to revert to mass tacticts and just remove the alcohol as a quick fix.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:34 am

How do you "overreact when things get out of hand?" If they are out of hand, dont they warrant esscalation of force by law enforcment? :-k

We must not have watched the same video...
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Post by valen76 » Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:20 am

I agree with GW...they should have loaded that FN303 with OC rounds not paint. That would have gotten them to calm down. I have fired the FN303 and it is accurate. It doesn't use the plain old paint ball...it is basically a fin stabilized round. I would love to have one of those.
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Post by Voice » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:35 pm

Why is this considered an "alcohol" problem and not a "crowd" problem?
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Post by quad1100 » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:12 pm

That lady cop with the pepper ball gun probably wasn't helping matters. I think she was on a mission, did you see her push off those other cops when they tried to stop her.

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Post by Glamisbound » Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:17 pm

Voice wrote:Why is this considered an "alcohol" problem and not a "crowd" problem?
B/C its alcohol that turns a regular crowd into a crowd of idiots. A very large percentage of law enforcement contacts on a daily basis are connected in some way to alcohol and/or drug use. I'm not saying a crowd can't get out of control if they are not drunk, but it sure makes the odds much higher if they are.

And these cops did NOT over react. They were outnumbered significantly and used an appropriate amount of force to protect themselves and innocent people in the area.
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Post by Voice » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:10 pm

B/C its alcohol that turns a regular crowd into a crowd of idiots. A very large percentage of law enforcement contacts on a daily basis are connected in some way to alcohol and/or drug use. I'm not saying a crowd can't get out of control if they are not drunk, but it sure makes the odds much higher if they are.

And these cops did NOT over react. They were outnumbered significantly and used an appropriate amount of force to protect themselves and innocent people in the area.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. A regular crowd? What is that? Either there are too many people in the area (crowd) or there is not... and, Alcohol turns EVERYONE into idiots but we in America have decided that it is our right to be an idiot. It is LEGAL to drink alcohol. If there are drunk and disordly people then arrest them... don't take it out on everyone in the area just because "a large percentage of trouble is alcohol or drugs" As far as I know there were no drug issues involved here.
All this was was a very large rowdy crowd that the cops failed to control. It got out of controll so they started in with riot tacticts.

Why did they let it get out of controll in the first place? Why were they outnumbered? Why did they let things get so out of hand?

Sure, it's easy to just say... "It's all these drunks causing the problem." But that does nothing to actually solve the problem.
If you really feel that way then why don't you just start up a new prohibition movement and outlaw all of our freedoms... Alcolhol, cafeen, tobacco, cell phones... Yeah, lets make the world safe!

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Post by Glamisbound » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:07 pm

Why did they let it get out of control in the first place? Why were they outnumbered? Why did they let things get so out of hand?
We have such different thought processes, I have a hard time figuring out just what you are REALLY saying. Are you implying that it's the Cops fault that things got out of hand???? It's not the crowd...not the drugs...not the alcohol...that is the problem, but the Cops???

This even gets more confusing when I take into account all the "we need less law enforcement..." posts you have made over the years :?

The Cops are always outnumbered in large crowd situations, that's why they have training, tools, additional resources, and weapons to use to help mitigate the situation. They attempt to level the playing field, but they know it's never even. That crowd could have swallowed up those cops in seconds if they wanted to, and every cop there knows it.

ANY ONE of those people could have chosen to leave the area, but they didn't. They all chose to stay and be a part of a bad situation. I have no sympathy for any of them. Had I been there with my family or friends, I would have left the area instead of becoming part of the problem. Alcohol doesn't make everyone an idiot, only some.
Sure, it's easy to just say... "It's all these drunks causing the problem." But that does nothing to actually solve the problem.
I'm not trying to solve a problem here...I'm just debating one. I have been on the front lines before!! I’ve stood next to 40 other cops facing off against thousands of pissed off people. I wore a riot helmet, a riot vest, had a gas mask, smacked a few people with a baton, pepper sprayed a few people, Tased people...not one of them didn't deserve it. They asked to be there, not me. At that time I was part of a SOLUTION to save innocent citizens from getting mugged, rapped, assaulted, maybe even killed...we stood up for all the closed businesses and protect personal property from getting vandalized etc...We stood the line to protect people like you!!
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Post by RichB » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:54 pm

FWIW I don't think this is anywhere near an apples-to-apples comparison with UA's out at the dunes.

UA's out at the dunes are many times (if not always now) PRE arranged i.e. no lawlessness has to be going on for you to be lumped in with and treated like a scum bag.

Also, UA's force every single person off a patch of real estate i.e. Olds whether they are innocent/law abiding or not. Did not see this in the SD beach video.

Looks to me like these cops in SD were dealing with/handling the folks that were actually acting up around/with them. I can see in the video them bypassing others on the beach. To me, this is an absolutely appropriate and just way of handling a disturbance.

I have a fundamental problem with mass-expulsion tactics ESPECIALLY when they're pre-arranged.
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Post by crash » Wed Sep 19, 2007 8:36 am

Did anyone see the Kerry speech tasering?

Must say, I think the cops could have dealt with this idiot a little better, but the guy was certainly putting up a fuss and looks like he probably wanted what he got.

It's really not that hard people. LISTEN to others that have AUTHORITY and you won't, most likely, be arrested or tased. Even if the cops are asshats and wrong and jerks, it's really futile to fight the guys with the badge. You WILL lose.

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Post by Glamisbound » Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:52 pm

crash wrote:Did anyone see the Kerry speech tasering?

Must say, I think the cops could have dealt with this idiot a little better, but the guy was certainly putting up a fuss and looks like he probably wanted what he got.

It's really not that hard people. LISTEN to others that have AUTHORITY and you won't, most likely, be arrested or tased. Even if the cops are asshats and wrong and jerks, it's really futile to fight the guys with the badge. You WILL lose.
They did a good job...in fact, they were too passive IMO. I would have taken that guy to the ground and cuffed him up the second he became resistive and non-compliant. And if that didn't work, I would have tased him until he became compliant (usually about 1.5 seconds). They went easier on him than they could have justified b/c of the enviornment.
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Post by alyshka » Wed Sep 19, 2007 7:30 pm

RichB wrote:FWIW I don't think this is anywhere near an apples-to-apples comparison with UA's out at the dunes.

UA's out at the dunes are many times (if not always now) PRE arranged i.e. no lawlessness has to be going on for you to be lumped in with and treated like a scum bag.

Also, UA's force every single person off a patch of real estate i.e. Olds whether they are innocent/law abiding or not. Did not see this in the SD beach video.

Looks to me like these cops in SD were dealing with/handling the folks that were actually acting up around/with them. I can see in the video them bypassing others on the beach. To me, this is an absolutely appropriate and just way of handling a disturbance.

I have a fundamental problem with mass-expulsion tactics ESPECIALLY when they're pre-arranged.


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Post by crash » Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:08 am

Yeah, my point was that he should have been cuffed and stuffed immediately, and with the guy being out numbered 5:1 in favor of the cops, I didn't really see the need for the Tasing. Knee to the neck, hog tie, and haul away would have been fine by me.
Interesting thing to me was it really didn't seem out of hand until the cops started grabbing this guy, apparently because they thought his question was abusive to Kerry. Kerry actually wanted to answer, but then the fracus started.
I can see both sides on this one. I don't see what initiated the cops going after this guy, but once they made that decision, the guy should have complied. He's an idiot.
Then again, once they had him on the ground and out numbered, was that tasing really neccessary?

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Post by Glamisbound » Thu Sep 20, 2007 5:28 pm

Then again, once they had him on the ground and out numbered, was that tasing really neccessary?
Yes, because he was still being active resistant. They used a reasonable amount of force to get him to comply without risking further injury to themselves, or to him for that matter. I've been in fights were it's taken 9 cops to cuff one guy and I've been in several situations where I've actually broken arms trying to get a bad guy cuffed up. I suppose unless you've been the one in the fight, it's hard to comprehend b/c it seems like 5 cops should be able to easily cuff up one bad guy, but that is not always the case.
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Post by crash » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:24 am

Yeah, I completely understand that when the perp is high/drunk, incoherent, and non responsive, but this guy appeared to be none of that. Just resisting a bit. He obviously understood what was about to happen to him and was pleading for the cop not to Tase him. Looked to me like his flight reaction was kicking in more than anything at that point, but it also looks like he may have been already cuffed at that point also.

Again, not saying the cops were complete idiots or anything, just saying I think if a lieutenant or other experienced super was on scene this probably wouldn't have been taken to this point of Tasing. I've seen quit a few incidents now where it appears cops, and others, are Tasing first and asking questions latter. The Taser is a potentially very dangerous tool and should not be used lightly......but I'm sure you know that already. Not trying to be a cop here, just relaying my observations, and let me reiterate that I thank you and your colleagues for what you do ever chance I get........Thank You!!

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Post by Glamisbound » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:26 am

I know you do Crash, thanks!

I just watched it again and my opinion is the same. One officer tells the suspect multiple times, while they are wrestling with him on the ground, to put his hands behind his back or he will be tased. It appears to me that the suspect never complies. Eventhough the suspect feels like he is being arrested without cause, he does NOT have the right to resist officers. It is a crime within itself! It is for the courts to decide whether the officers had reasonible suspcion to detain him or probable cause to arrest him, NOT the suspect (or bystanders who are shouting police brutality, Rodney King, etc).

Every time an officer makes an arrest (or detainment) they are taking on a certain amount of civil liability, which I can assure you is not taken likely. They must be able to articulate in court why they did what they did. If they can not, they may open themselves up to personal civil liability (if it's determined that they violated department policy, civil rights, or laws etc). Those officers could subsequently lose their personal assets, inlcuding their homes. In other words, officers put their arse on the line every day, physically and personally, to walk the line.

And one more thing...please do not fall prey to our liberal media...Tasers have saved MANY lives over the last few years. I recently read a poll that showed something like an 80% reduction in officer involved shootings (OIS), where a taser was successfully depolyed (in a situation where deadly force was justifiable), ending the situation without loss of life. Additionally, they are affective on almost everyone, whereas peper spray (OC), batons, and other non/less lethal tools are practically inaffected in many cases (I had a 285 pound guy "drink" an entire can of OC spray as I sprayed it directly into his mouth while he told me how much he loved it).
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Post by gelwell » Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:38 pm

I rarely chime on these kind of issues involving LEO's. Since my Dad is/was a LEO the difficulty for me is there is a fine line between right and wrong. A line that is taken literally every second of every day by our LEO's, that is not an easy thing to do. Imagine in your job that you had to a make split decision, that was life or death, many of us dont have to do that (Thank God). But what if your boss said " Right now what is your thought to keep this company running" NOW I WANT ANSWER RIGHT NOW!! Many tmes our LEO' s have that conundrum. Split decsion making NOW. What would you do? Not a question I want everyday. Do you?
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