Compromise with the CBD & Sierra Club!?!?

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Post by RichB » Mon May 07, 2007 5:59 pm

Crowdog wrote: The only "Friends of" organization with the organization and funding to play hard ball is the Friends of Oceano Dunes. And all that it would take to neutralize FoOD is a few of the key folks to get burned out.
Thank you. That’s been one of my points for a while now, but of course anyone with that opinion must just be from the “ASA pep squad” & be full of “blind hatred”.
Dusty Rhodes wrote:I would like to see an Umbrella organization consolidate all the Friends of organizations and have a UNITED front to fight back. All of these small organizations fracture the money, the effort, and the clout of the community as a whole. The CBD must salivate at the thought of taking on a little organization. Little money, little membership, little clout, and it shows by all the victories they have attained. Put all that money, time, and effort into one organization and it would be quite formidable.
Dusty, thank you too. This is something else I’ve been saying for a long time. But you see there are people in high positions in some orgs that carry so much old baggage, grudges, and personality conflicts from their past they can’t put that aside for the betterment of the OHV cause; even if it costs duners losing their sport area by area. Great idea/concept but be prepared to be called everything but a civilized man by some OHV leaders for saying it.

Right now I’d argue that some of the “friends of” organizations are actually doing more harm than good in some aspects. How? Because they actually give the BLM the right to check off their box that says they’ve “partnered, worked hand-in-hand etc” with the OHV people. In essence, these small orgs are giving the duner stamp of approval on every action (good or bad) the BLM wants to enact. You see, when you’re impotent you’re only option is to “be friends/team-up” with the BLM. That is, if you have no members you have no clout other than maybe a particular leaders’ real or perceived “personal” clout....a best that’s a flawed single-point-of-failure setup even with someone who’s crap-hot at the bargaining table; at worst, it’s someone that thinks they’re all that when they’re really just a legend in their own mind yet are out “representing” the dune public.

When you’re in that position you have a few of ways to express it:

- Like the President of SM did in that he was publically bemoaning the fact they got steamrolled.

- You can rationalize that losses are actually wins.

- You take any small “accomplishment” and blow it up to a big deal, even though it may have been just a bone that the BLM threw you.

IMO, you can only have a true partnership/respectful relationship when all those at the table are of about equal status. The small stand-on-our-own organizations are your local garage based streetstock stockcar team that’s entered in a race against Dale Earnhardt Inc, Roush, and Hendrick Motorsports’ cars, on a NASCAR track. You think the BLM respects the capability of any of these orgs, yeah right.

If “being partners” with the BLM means you get it up the rear end (over and over) then I guess I don’t want to be “friends.” If on the other hand you carry a big stick around that they have to respect that will force them to actually “work/compromise” with you i.e. then being partners/friends is a good thing. The small orgs have no big stick and you bet your bottom dollar the BLM (and enviros) know that.

I think the bigger orgs have finally figured out what it takes to be effective. Teamwork and coalitions are the only hope we have. There’s no reason I can think of other than selfish ego driven pig headedness that the small orgs wouldn’t take that concept and run with it.

You can’t be total unconditional buds with the BLM because if push comes to shove they’ll dump you like a hot potato for the enviro nuts’ demands, and why wouldn’t they? It’s absolutely indisputable, it just happened again (subject of this thread). The enviros can make life a living hell for them via the courts which costs them big bank. That commands attention/gets action, not "being friends" because that's all you can do.
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Post by Crowdog » Mon May 07, 2007 6:38 pm

Rich,

Friends of Sand Mountain is far from being "best buds" with the BLM.

Jon

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Post by jhitesma » Mon May 07, 2007 6:54 pm

A little thought experiment for everyone.

Imagine it's 1997. Most of you can probably still remember back that far.

The wilderness area north of 78 is already in existance.

The CBD has just filed to get the PMV listed (it was only listed in 1998, I'm not sure when exactly they started the listing process for the purpose of this mind experiment 97 is good enough.)

Now we'll make one small change to history. Imagine that there was a "Friends of Glamis" at that time. This is where things can get interesting and we leave history behind moving into the hypothetical.

What if.

What if FOG had existed and learned of this attempt to get a plant that is abundant listed? What if they had been able to get involved (much like FOSM did with the attempt to list this butterfly) and get studies done BEFORE the species had become listed.

What if as a result of those studies the listing had been denied?

What if the reason that listing was denied was in part because the existing closures (north of 78) were deemed sufficient for the livelihood of the species since it was obviously flourishing?

The CBD would have lost their silver bullet. There would have been a need for a section 7 consultation and the fish in a barrel loophole (An interesting story itself that few, even the "well informed" fully understand) the CBD used to get the 2000 era temporary closures would not have been opened for them.

As a result Glamis and the rest of the ISDRA was left untouched....while the existing closures north of 78 were left in place.


How many would have been shouting about FOG "selling out the duners" and compromising?


What about another story. One with no twists of reality to imagine. One that just happened a few years ago (after the ASA was in place and people started to wake up, organize and realize what was happening.)

Remember - we almost ended up with another listed species in the ISDRA just a few years ago (after the 2000 closures) that could have cost us most or all of Buttercup and Gordon's well. That was the FTHL (Flat Tail Horned Lizard) and the main reason it wasn't listed was because of the then brand new camping closures west of Gordon's well which were themselves a "compromise" in return for the Herman Schneider bridge. That was a very real very recent case of compromise that few seem to have any major beef with...even though even fewer of them even realize that it managed to pull another silver bullet out of the chamber. A bullet the greens had already considered fired and lodged in their target.

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Post by Crowdog » Mon May 07, 2007 7:48 pm

From a May 2003 newspaper article:
But butterflies and buckwheat are not the only concerns of ecologists at Sand Mountain.

Kinerson listed the Sand Mountain aphodius scarab beetle, the click beetle and two bee species, perdita hiagi and the perdita sp. nov. 3 as invertebrates living only on the Sand Mountain dunes. Some of these are so newly discovered scientists have yet to name them.

Other invertebrates, including the Hardy's aegialian scarab beetle, the Sand Mountain pygmy scarab beetle, the Sand Mountain serican scarab beetle and the anthophora sp. nov. 1 bee live only on the dunes and in the area just south of there.

"You wouldn't find these invertebrates anywhere else in the world," Kinerson said. "If we lose them, they're gone forever."

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Post by RichB » Mon May 07, 2007 7:48 pm

Crowdog wrote:Rich,

Friends of Sand Mountain is far from being "best buds" with the BLM.

Jon
Don't doubt it, especially now :evil:
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Post by Crowdog » Mon May 07, 2007 8:23 pm

Here's a little history (newest listed at top):

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=20822 - USFWS to initiate status review of butterfly

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=19442 - Lawsuit filed by CBD, PEER

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=18366 - BLM initiates emergency closure

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=16760 - ESA Reform

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=15925 - butterfly group announced

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=15599 - Fallon Tribe seeks protection of cultural sites

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=15503 - BRC opposes butterfly restrictions

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=15485 - ACEC proposed at Sand Mountain by Indian Tribe

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=15209 - NV lawmaker blasts recent closures

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=15041 - CBD petitions to list butterfly

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=11990 - 1000 acre emergency closure avoided

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=11994 - Formal complaint lodged against BLM employees

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=11813 - Letter's needed - no replies

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=11566 - Panel considers ideas to protect rare butterfly

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=11314 - Butterfly my cut offroad engines

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Post by crash » Tue May 08, 2007 8:12 am

I was aware of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, and ORBA, and Ecologic. I haven't however been pushed to looking into them by the regional "friends" sites I visit. One of the things that would REALLY be good is if ONE organization broke away and organized ALL the smaller orgs by having a presence on ALL the smaller orgs websites. It can't be just a little link in a corner somewhere buried on page 5 of a BBS link area. It needs to be prominent and eye catching. It needs to provide a little news on what issues are being addressed. Heaven forbid, cause I HATE these things, but maybe even a popup that appears every time someone logs into one of the smaller sites that gives a quick update. It would have to be kept fresh as otherwise people wouldn't actually read it, but somehow, someway, we have to stay focused on the endzone and become more organized and more recognizable to the average offroader. We need to either create or raise one of the current orgs to the level that whenever anybody involved in off road recreation thinks of an organization that they want to donate to it's this one. For me, over the years that org has been the ASA. Unfortunately, I have not seen the scope of the ASA really broaden to include sand areas throughout AMERICA as the name implies. Maybe I'm just not privy to what is happening behind the scenes. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I see the ASA as focusing on just the ISDRA for the most part.

Some org needs to unite EVERY off road org and become a leader. This is the ONLY way, other than having politicians in the right places, that we will have a load enough voice to be heard by the general public.

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Post by Grumpy Wookiee » Tue May 08, 2007 8:24 am

Crash, what you are saying is repeated in the FoSM forum by Flynbowtie. I was under the impression that ORBA has this in the works, but I could be wrong. WR was talking to me last night and telling me a little about how things are going and who is doing what. But I think you are right. Just trying to find out what organization is fighting what battle is difficult. I know that the ASA is fighting the ISDRA battle from the front line, and therefore has become a little Glamis centric. I also know that the varriety of off roading organizations exist so that one organization doesnt have to take on all of the battles all at once.

The organization that I think is in position to do what you are talking about, although I dont know how much time and effort they have spent on this, is the AMA. I would think that with the backing of the major coorporations that make the toys that we use in off roading, the AMA would have the most money to spend in these battles. If they were to become more of an Umbrella type organization, and encompass all these smaller groups, they would have the money and the numbers.
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Post by L&L Corvairs » Tue May 08, 2007 8:43 am

FWIW

Am very sorry to see the loss at Sand Mountain. I know Crowdog invested a good chunk of his hard earned $$$ and LIFE to try and save the place, without much, if any help. For him this closure has to be especially painful. My sincere thanks and gratitude go to him for all that he has done for our sport.

However, in fairness, I didn’t see anything in Vor’s original post that was intended as a personal slam at anyone, (unless it’s buried real deep) even though if I were in Crowdog’s shoes, I might feel it was aimed at me. Vor’s point was. “Don’t give up with out a fight” and darn it..’LET’s GET PEO”D” and don’t COMPROMISE.

While a agree that a “No Compromise” position is the best for the OHV community and one I fully support, any review of the history of conflict (i.e. WAR) is that most of them end with some type of compromise. Seldom does one side get total 100% unconditional surrender/victory over the other. Usually the loser gives up something so they can either

A) Quit fighting, take up their horse and ‘go home’

And/OR

B) Avoid complete destruction and a lot of mess/wasted resources (i.e. people/equipment/money) on both sides.

Make no mistake people, we are at WAR with the Green Left. Or rather, the Green Left has declared war on us, (meaning the OHV sport) whether us OHV’ers recognize it or not. They have superior numbers (people) more $$$ and the LAW (ESA) on their side. They make their living off of this fight. And live quit comfortably, thank you very much. Additionally, they are fanatics, just as fanatical as the Muslim terrorists that flew planes into the WTC in 2001. Which means they have no concept of quitting, and they will not listen to or consider information or opinions that run counter to their beliefs. They have no morals and will not hesitate to lie, cheat, steal and some will kill and/or die if they believed it would help them ‘win’.

Every time we enter into a battle with them, we are already at a disadvantage. Especially since our ‘troops’ (i.e. Joe Duner) has a lot of apathy. As was pointed out, we can’t get ol’ Joe to part with 20 lousy bucks while he’s pouring $500.00 worth of gas into his stuff to go play, let alone give up anything else.
Since we are at that disadvantage, it makes us ripe for ‘Compromise’. And, people, how do you think wars are won? One battle at a time. One compromise at a time. The Greens know this. They been fighting this way for more then 35 years. Yeah. THIRTY FIVE YEARS!! Longer then many of you have been alive!!

What do we have on our side? Good science. It’s all we’ve got. If we want to fight the Greens to a standstill, we need to invest heavily in good science, good lawyers and politicians who share either the love of our sport or at least our POV. We need to invest LOTS. We need to remember that we need to KEEP investing. If we want to continue to use our toys on public land, it will be a constant, never ending investment. The Greens will NOT quit. Neither can we. And, while we may abhor compromise, we’ll need to understand that every time we go to court (i.e. BATTLE) our chances of winning are slim (because the deck is staked heavily against us) and most of our choices will be ones that include the word “Compromise”.

And I know there are some who will blast me for the above. That’s ok. They’ll say I’m wrong. That THEY would NEVER compromise and I’m morally week and shouldn’t be involved in this fight in any capacity, that their standards are ‘higher’. But when someone holds a gun to their head and says’ “Give me your wallet and I’ll let you live, or I’ll kill you and take everything you’ve got”…they’ll compromise too. Those will be our choices.




Oh, yeah..a PS….

Nothing helps the greens more then when we fight amongst ourselves. When we tear each other down in petty skirmishes of ego and dislike. Save your hate for the true enemy. Invest your energy there.
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Post by L&L Corvairs » Tue May 08, 2007 8:50 am

Grumpy Wookiee wrote: I would think that with the backing of the major coorporations that make the toys that we use in off roading, the AMA would have the most money to spend in these battles.
No offence, Grumpy, but none of the major manufactures are going to back any play that goes against the Green Left. They have been approached many times. They have a justifiably real fear of a Green backlash and while the OHV side of their business is sizeable, it’s not necessary for their survival. Egro…no balls on their part.
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Post by Dusty Rhodes » Tue May 08, 2007 8:56 am

Here is my problem with these so-called compromises. Compromise means both sides give something up. But lets face it, what is the other side giving up? Think about that question really hard. It is not truly giving up anything if there side of the compromise is to only accept partial closure instead of full closure. They have given up nothing!!!! They gained partial closure!!!!!! Partial closure means we gave up part of our riding area and the other side lost not a **** thing. All I see is the OHV community giving up more and more and the other side not giving up anything. THAT IS NOT COMPROMISE, that is slowly bleeding us out!!!!!
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Post by Jerry Seaver » Tue May 08, 2007 9:44 am

Reality is that for either side to compromise there has to be some question of what the out come would be if there is no compromise. If either side feels strongly that they have the winning hand, they don't need to entertain a compromise of any kind. The ESA (Endangered Species Act) does give the Anti groups some leverage. It is uncertain whether this Act will get revised so good peer reviewed science has to be used and not just best science available. Any time there is a question on what may happen in the future because of a judges decision or the interpretation of a reg., there is incentive for both parties to talk.

Personally I would like to see decisions stop being made based on emotion and what someone would like to see. Using studies that can be defended as a basis would at least make better sense.

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Post by L&L Corvairs » Tue May 08, 2007 10:43 am

Dusty Rhodes wrote:Here is my problem with these so-called compromises. Compromise means both sides give something up. But lets face it, what is the other side giving up? Think about that question really hard. It is not truly giving up anything if there side of the compromise is to only accept partial closure instead of full closure. They have given up nothing!!!! They gained partial closure!!!!!! Partial closure means we gave up part of our riding area and the other side lost not a **** thing. All I see is the OHV community giving up more and more and the other side not giving up anything. THAT IS NOT COMPROMISE, that is slowly bleeding us out!!!!!
You have to look at it from their POV.

Every time THEY compromise, they GIVE UP not getting it ALL CLOSED, which is what they are fighting for.
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Post by crash » Tue May 08, 2007 11:59 am

Yes, but once again, these policies that are being instituted are being done so at the behest of a relatively small few who have learned how to apply pressure to specific areas of the government and use specific loopholes to forward their agenda. Let's face it. The facts are that OHV dune users at the ISDRA outnumber hikers by what, 20,000 to 1 on a yearly use basis AND they already have a specific area reserved specifically for them. THIS IS A SPECIAL INTEREST CONTROLLING THE DECISIONS THAT EFFECT THE GENERAL POPULATION.(Just for you GW)

We MUST find a way to "stop the madness".

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Post by Dusty Rhodes » Tue May 08, 2007 12:48 pm

L&L Corvairs wrote:
Dusty Rhodes wrote:Here is my problem with these so-called compromises. Compromise means both sides give something up. But lets face it, what is the other side giving up? Think about that question really hard. It is not truly giving up anything if there side of the compromise is to only accept partial closure instead of full closure. They have given up nothing!!!! They gained partial closure!!!!!! Partial closure means we gave up part of our riding area and the other side lost not a **** thing. All I see is the OHV community giving up more and more and the other side not giving up anything. THAT IS NOT COMPROMISE, that is slowly bleeding us out!!!!!
You have to look at it from their POV.

Every time THEY compromise, they GIVE UP not getting it ALL CLOSED, which is what they are fighting for.
L&L that is a false argument! You either gain something or you lose something. Plus or minus. You can't say because they didn't get EVERYTHING they wanted, that it is a minus. They gained partial closure or restrictions or what have you. That is a gain. We come up on the loss part because we lost something we had before. That is their tactic....slow gain. They are using the oldest negotiating tactic in the world.......start off after everything and end up with something. At some point a whole lot of somethings is going to end up being everything.
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Post by crash » Tue May 08, 2007 1:34 pm

Dusty Rhodes wrote:
L&L Corvairs wrote:
Dusty Rhodes wrote:Here is my problem with these so-called compromises. Compromise means both sides give something up. But lets face it, what is the other side giving up? Think about that question really hard. It is not truly giving up anything if there side of the compromise is to only accept partial closure instead of full closure. They have given up nothing!!!! They gained partial closure!!!!!! Partial closure means we gave up part of our riding area and the other side lost not a **** thing. All I see is the OHV community giving up more and more and the other side not giving up anything. THAT IS NOT COMPROMISE, that is slowly bleeding us out!!!!!
You have to look at it from their POV.

Every time THEY compromise, they GIVE UP not getting it ALL CLOSED, which is what they are fighting for.
L&L that is a false argument! You either gain something or you lose something. Plus or minus. You can't say because they didn't get EVERYTHING they wanted, that it is a minus. They gained partial closure or restrictions or what have you. That is a gain. We come up on the loss part because we lost something we had before. That is their tactic....slow gain. They are using the oldest negotiating tactic in the world.......start off after everything and end up with something. At some point a whole lot of somethings is going to end up being everything.
To put it another way.

Every time WE compromise, they end up closer to their goal, and WE end up further away from ours.


IT"S TIME TO STOP THE COMPROMISES. STOP THEM FROM TAKING THE PUBLICS LAND!!!

How do you like that GW? I got all caps AND large letters in the same sentence. :lol:

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Post by Voice » Tue May 08, 2007 2:37 pm

Lloyd, my hero! :D

I actually broke out laughing when I saw the list of "accomplishments" that was posted... I mean, I could literally hear the 8 year olds saying...

"Oh yeah? Well, My dad is bigger than your dad and he can beat your dad up!!!"

Who gives a flying you-know-what?
I'm not here to debate the plusses or minuses of the ASA or of ORBA or of the completely clueless AMA. That's for the respective orgs to do.

What I AM saying is that if you consider this a win then you've already lost.
We in the Glamis dunes have known how this works since the inception of the ASA, hence the battle cry of "No Compromise" which the ASA was founded on.

They demand 50,000 acres and we demand ZERO... ANY compromise will result in a loss.

So we have two options... We either stick to the NO COMPROMISE idea or we start making demands of our own.

They demand 50,000 acres... we demand 100,000 acres opened. Compromise is NET for US!!!
It's pretty basic math.

As long as we are on the defensive we will lose. Sure, sometimes it will be a smaller loss then it might have been, like in this case... but it is still a loss! Even if all they did was fence off one bush.
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Post by Dusty Rhodes » Tue May 08, 2007 2:48 pm

Voice wrote:They demand 50,000 acres and we demand ZERO... ANY compromise will result in a loss.

So we have two options... We either stick to the NO COMPROMISE idea or we start making demands of our own.
This is my argument also.
Voice wrote:They demand 50,000 acres... we demand 100,000 acres opened. Compromise is NET for US!!!
It's pretty basic math.
I would be happy with even 50/50 swaps (an acre for an equivilent acre) but even so it requires we be on SOLID ground for our demands and we are up against activists judges who legislate from the bench which is a major ally of the CBD type people.
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Post by Crowdog » Tue May 08, 2007 3:19 pm

Voice wrote:Lloyd, my hero! :DWhat I AM saying is that if you consider this a win then you've already lost.
The only "win" here is that the butterfly was not listed.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the whole thing came out in the end like a turd.

Our ability to win without compromise requires a stronger vantage point.

It all comes down to politics and lately we have lost ground, not gained.

The enviros have an incredibly effective tool in the ESA on their side. We start out in the whole trying to claw our way back out whenever it is used against us.

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Post by Wolfpack » Tue May 08, 2007 4:02 pm

I agree with an earlier comment in this topic about being on the defensive side of the ball on this. Always, it seems, on the defensive.

Sure, we are defending our right to use the dunes, but it seems to always be reactionary to some move or decision made by those against motorized use of lands. I'd rather an up front and ahead of the curve tack be taken. We sit around and wait for the CBD, or some disconnected judge or court to make a move. Then "we" react.

There must be a way to go on offense for a change instead of sitting back and maintaining the status quo, which appears to be nothing more than a protracted death sentence.

Just exactly how do "we" go on offense? Personally I don't know. But there are alot of bright minds and brave souls in our sport, and some alleged bright ones that are being paid to help. There must be something better than sitting around waiting for someone else to make a move.

My frustrated 2 cents worth.
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Post by flyinbowtie » Tue May 08, 2007 4:29 pm

crash wrote:Yes, but once again, these policies that are being instituted are being done so at the behest of a relatively small few who have learned how to apply pressure to specific areas of the government and use specific loopholes to forward their agenda. Let's face it. The facts are that OHV dune users at the ISDRA outnumber hikers by what, 20,000 to 1 on a yearly use basis AND they already have a specific area reserved specifically for them. THIS IS A SPECIAL INTEREST CONTROLLING THE DECISIONS THAT EFFECT THE GENERAL POPULATION.(Just for you GW)

We MUST find a way to "stop the madness".

We agree here, Crash.
As I posted in the other thread, nothing is more frustratng that being involved in and aware of what is happening to public lands, then see that a special interest group under the control of the Eco-Socialists is manipulating the system to their advantage.
Stopping the madness?
Get more than 40% of the voting public to show up for an election.
Get the people who use the public lands off of their arses and into the fray.
If you look at the numbers of vehicles green-stickered today in California, then look at the percentage of those people who are involved in the cause, it is abysmal, to put it mildly.
Sadly, people are enraptured by American Idol, and MTV, and are relinquishing control of the entire country to the Eco-Socialists, and their, "Overarching Agency," the Left-Wing Socialsts who are in the process of trying to control every aspect of our lives...thereby making us completely dependant upon the federal government.
This country is divesting itself of every freedom the founding fathers and every other American in the Military fought, bled, and died for since those brave souls signed their names to the Declaration of Independance.
It is alot like a water shortage. Nobody believes there is a water shortage until no water comes out of THEIR tap, then by GOD, there is a water shortage, and they are the first to whine, moan and complain, and if they did vote, it was probably not to build the dam, not to maintain the system, etc.
The EXACT same thing has happened in the timber industry.
Remember the spotted owl? The one that only lived in old-growth forests?
oh, and also the "A" in the K-Mart sign in Yreka? :roll:
Priced any redwood lately?
The Eco-Socialists have darn near killed the timber industry in California via a very effective P.R. program targeting all the either ignorant or fellow leftist folks out there who sent in their money, and are now unable to build or buy a home because the price of lumber is ot of control.
Getting people to believe there is a problem, believe it impacts them, and to believe it is worth them shutting off the idiot box and walking out their front door to do something about it needs to be job #1 when that long-dreamed of umbrella agency gets it's feet on the ground.
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Post by Jerry Seaver » Tue May 08, 2007 4:35 pm

There must be a way to go on offense for a change instead of sitting back and maintaining the status quo, which appears to be nothing more than a protracted death sentence.

Just exactly how do "we" go on offense? Personally I don't know. But there are alot of bright minds and brave souls in our sport, and some alleged bright ones that are being paid to help. There must be something better than sitting around waiting for someone else to make a move.


I hope your right. I would be interested in the solution to what should be done. Answers like, ask for a 100,000 acres if they are asking for 50,000 acres doesn't work unless you have a basis for asking for a 100,000 acres, not just because.
Our ability to win without compromise requires a stronger vantage point.

It all comes down to politics and lately we have lost ground, not gained.

The enviros have an incredibly effective tool in the ESA on their side. We start out in the whole trying to claw our way back out whenever it is used against us.
I don't think it can be said any better than this statement by Crowdog.
So we have two options... We either stick to the NO COMPROMISE idea or we start making demands of our own.
The NO COMPROMISE stand is easy to take but unless there is a basis for standing our ground and making demands of our own, a judge is going to make the compromise for us. So what do you do. Rely on the judge?

I agree with Crowdog that it usually comes down to politics and the OHV community hasn't done as well as it can do so far.

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Post by Voice » Tue May 08, 2007 6:17 pm

The off-road business community is large... the recreational business community is even bigger. Big enough to force feed us fees for our public lands. These communities have significant clout that needs only to be directed in the right direction.
For example: The Recreational Businesses were organized into a group which was influential enough to get congress to pass first Demo fees and then to make the fees permanant. This was virtually entirely the Recreational businesses who accomplished this and the greens were definantly against this.
And while I completely disagree with fees for our public lands one would have to be an idiot to not see how taking the offensive against the greens can net significant gains.
It is time we as a group stop settling for half of a closure instead of a full closure. It is time we stand up and using the clout of our businesses start demanding our public areas to be opened to our public use. Make them spend money fighting the re-opening of some area... Like the NORTH dunes. Let our business community and the recreational business community fight for us. We should be lobbying the ARC to get them to fight to open our lands so they can milk them for even more money. After all, they MUST know that hikers don't spend nearly as much money as off-roaders.
But, I'm afraid that no one even knows what the ARC is or how they were able to pass the fee system even while a large majority of the public was against it.

http://www.funoutdoors.com/
http://www.wildwilderness.org/content/section/10/92/

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Post by L&L Corvairs » Wed May 09, 2007 8:36 am

Respectfully, Dusty,

I understand completely what you are saying, and from the OHV POV, I agree 110%. But our POV isn’t the only one out there. And more importantly, we need to understand our enemies, how they think and what motivates them.

Remember, while the OHV community is large, in comparison to the population as a whole, we are a small minority. Many, MANY people have little if any understanding of our sport beyond what snippets they may see in the media. So, when you present an argument to Joe SIXPACK and/or Jane Birkenstock, that the compromise is “Some gets closed, and some remains open, that’s a reasonable result. Especially if Joe and Jane live in New York City, have all their lives and most of their outdoor experience comes from walking through Central Park.

And that’s why my earlier statement is not false. From their POV, when they compromise and don’t close it ALL, they LOSE the battle. They truly, completely believe they LOST, regardless of how us OHV’ers think or feel. You may not personally agree with them, but that doesn’t change how THEY feel; and while we may think our ‘reality’ is correct and we lost and they gained, the general population would most likely NOT agree with us either.

I understand that most of us believe that OHV activities on public land is a RIGHT, but the reality is, it’s a PRIVLIAGE. In fact, any activity on public land is a PRIVLIAGE, depending on what our government will LET us do. The law may say that us citizens can have ‘access’ to public land, but only with permission.
They are using the oldest negotiating tactic in the world.......start off after everything and end up with something. At some point a whole lot of somethings is going to end up being everything.
This is correct. Except it's not a 'negotiating tactic'. It's call strategy of war and it’s an excellent one. I use it all the time. And it’s working. Not only for OHV use, but for any and all land use, public or private. Land control is one of the basic requirements to install socialism. The Socialists are using our own laws to take us down. Our sport is in serious jeopardy, especially in California. OHV’s will be like guns in this state. You can own one, but it will be illegal to ride it anywhere. In fact, it’ll be illegal to put gas in it and start it up once in a while, even on your own private property. It’s already nearly illegal for anyone under the age of 16 to ride one. That day is coming faster then you think.

Just so everyone understands me. I am NOT promoting or endorsing compromise. I’m discussing/providing insight into the tactics and strategy of conflict(s) and how that works in the real world. It also doesn’t mean I like it, or think everything is fair or right. Nor am I saying we have lost and everyone should sell their toys and join the local chess club. The goal here is to show how desperate our situation is in the hopes of motivating more people to become involved in some capacity.
Last edited by L&L Corvairs on Wed May 09, 2007 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by crash » Wed May 09, 2007 8:53 am

L&L Corvairs wrote:So, when you present an argument to Joe SIXPACK and/or Jane Birkenstock, that the compromise is “Some gets closed, and some remains open, that’s a reasonable result. Especially if Joe and Jane live in New York City, have all their lives and most of their outdoor experience comes from walking through Central Park.
And what exactly do you think their reaction would be if, say, 60% of Central Park was closed to people because an amiba was found there that can't be found ANYWHERE ELSE in the world, according to a couple greeny crackpots?

We HAVE to find a way to have THAT sort of impact on the general population. Make it personal. The wack jobs do that with their ridiculous "save the world" campaign. We need a "save our freedoms" campaign, or something along those lines.

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Post by Dusty Rhodes » Wed May 09, 2007 9:06 am

L&L, I did not mean you argument was false and apologize for it sounding like I was saying that. I understand exactly what you are saying. I guess I should have phrased it differently. A better way would be to say it is an unethically misleading argument.
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Post by L&L Corvairs » Wed May 09, 2007 9:10 am

We HAVE to find a way to have THAT sort of impact on the general population. Make it personal. The wack jobs do that with their ridiculous "save the world" campaign. We need a "save our freedoms" campaign, or something along those lines.
Dude,

Would have to agree with you. And there are two different directions to consider.

The first one is…what makes you think Central Park isn’t on the ‘hit list’ of the Socialists now? There was something I read that started out:

“When they came for the XXXX’s, I didn’t say anything, and when they came for the YYYY’s I didn’t say anything but when they came for ME, there was nobody left”

Central Park is just way down on the Greens list because there are easier fish to fry right now.

But your comments did bring a thought to what little is left of my mind and that is the second thing to consider:

Maybe WE should go into the Endangered Species business and start by targeting areas that are near and dear to the Birkenstock crowd. Go find some bug or flower in Central Park or Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon or Golden Gate Park and get it listed and force closures. The problem is, we’d have to show that ANY human activity in the ‘critical habitat’ of the critter is detrimental, and that would be hard to do. But it’s something to think about.

And actually, there is a third alternative...it's called the Libertarian Party. I'ts not perfect, but it could be a place to start.
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Post by L&L Corvairs » Wed May 09, 2007 9:17 am

Dusty Rhodes wrote:L&L, I did not mean you argument was false and apologize for it sounding like I was saying that. I understand exactly what you are saying. I guess I should have phrased it differently. A better way would be to say it is an unethically misleading argument.
Dusty, thanks, but no appolgy necessary. I consider all this to be good, friendly, healthy discussion/debate.
:wink:
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Post by crash » Wed May 09, 2007 9:35 am

L&L Corvairs wrote:
We HAVE to find a way to have THAT sort of impact on the general population. Make it personal. The wack jobs do that with their ridiculous "save the world" campaign. We need a "save our freedoms" campaign, or something along those lines.
Dude,

Would have to agree with you. And there are two different directions to consider.

But your comments did bring a thought to what little is left of my mind and that is the second thing to consider:

Maybe WE should go into the Endangered Species business and start by targeting areas that are near and dear to the Birkenstock crowd. Go find some bug or flower in Central Park or Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon or Golden Gate Park and get it listed and force closures. The problem is, we’d have to show that ANY human activity in the ‘critical habitat’ of the critter is detrimental, and that would be hard to do. But it’s something to think about.
Scary thing is, I thought the same thing when I was writting that. Hit um in THEIR back yard and maybe it will awaken them to the realities. Then I returned to my senses and just realized that it would result in more closures all around. No I still feel the mitigation idea and a wide reaching PR campaign is probably going to be the most effective.

I just had another idea along those lines. It has probably been thought of before, but let's talk about it again as I can't remember anything like it.

See this thread:
http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... highlight=

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Post by Crowdog » Wed May 09, 2007 10:46 am

crash wrote: No I still feel the mitigation idea and a wide reaching PR campaign is probably going to be the most effective.
Mitigation may be plausible in an area like So. Cal. where you have closed dunes like North Algodones, Kelso, Cadiz & Eureka to try to reopen, but what about Nevada?

The only dune that is even remotely closed to Sand Mountain that is closed is Blow Sand Mountain. And it is a Naval bombing range.

And in So. Cal. all the dunes I listed above are all Wilderness Areas. Congressionally designated so it would be very tough politically to change that, even if there was a proper mitigation channel to work through. And many of those dunes also have Endangered/Threatened species. Ugh, my head is spinning.

So to me, mitigation is a great concept to throw out there, but quite a difficult one once you scratch the surface.

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Post by Dusty Rhodes » Wed May 09, 2007 10:51 am

How about targetted litigation? Play defense as we are now but find a spot, say the dunes north of Highway 78, or Oceano, and go on the offense there. As resources permit, then go on the offense in another place, all the while playing stingy, tough, hard nosed defense in ALL places. We can't go on the offensive in all places, but playing tough defense all the way around and then targetting a place (or places as resources permit) will put us on the offensive instead of reactionary defense.

BTW I am trying like hell to win the Mega Millions so I can fund an aggressive all encompassing Offensive to take back what has been lost :lol:
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Post by Crowdog » Wed May 09, 2007 11:09 am

Dusty Rhodes wrote:How about targetted litigation? Play defense as we are now but find a spot, say the dunes north of Highway 78, or Oceano, and go on the offense there. As resources permit, then go on the offense in another place, all the while playing stingy, tough, hard nosed defense in ALL places. We can't go on the offensive in all places, but playing tough defense all the way around and then targetting a place (or places as resources permit) will put us on the offensive instead of reactionary defense.

BTW I am trying like hell to win the Mega Millions so I can fund an aggressive all encompassing Offensive to take back what has been lost :lol:
Other than the "temporary" closure at the Imperial Sand Dunes, most of the closed dunes of any significance are in Southern California and have been declared Wilderness. It would take an act of Congress to reverse that designation.

In today's political environment, trying to accomplish that is a complete waste of time and money. If you even wanted to consider it, you would need to back up a bit and change the political makeup in DC.

So, once again, it all comes back to politics. In order to level the playing field of ESA use, we need the right representatives in Congress and the right person in the White House. Same goes for opening up dunes that are designated Wilderness and getting the temporary closure opened back up.

If you want to go on offense, you have to lay the groundwork otherwise you are spinning your wheels. Off-road organizations spent a lot of time working with Congressman Pombo from 2002 - 2006. He was our guy - but he lost his bid for reelection in 2006. That was a HUGE loss for off-roaders.

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Post by Voice » Wed May 09, 2007 1:39 pm

Fees in our forests and at Glamis were an "act of Congress."

Imagine a real movement towards getting the North dunes opened (fxd). Protest marches, Congressional support, news coverage... the whole shebang!

Would it work? Who knows? But it might just be enough to make the fight for the North dunes a valuable "compromise" item in our fight for the Closures.

In other words... "Hey CBD... Let's say we quit with the fight for the north dunes if you leave us alone with our south dunes?"

Or, it could be put on the table by a judge in a mitigation circumstance.
"If you are closing this much area we will be forced to reopen an equal amount in the north."

Or, it might do nothing more than get us attention. Which would give us the chance to explain the situation to the public.

Bottom line. I'm sick and tired of waiting around for the greens to take more and more of my land.

Go offensive, or go home.
Last edited by Voice on Wed May 09, 2007 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by L&L Corvairs » Wed May 09, 2007 2:49 pm

Ummm...Brian...sorry dude...gotta LMAO@ the Fruedian slip..

You mean North Dunes OPEN.... :wink:
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Post by Dusty Rhodes » Wed May 09, 2007 2:57 pm

I thought something was odd about what he said :lol:
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Post by Wolfpack » Wed May 09, 2007 3:32 pm

Dusty Rhodes wrote:I thought something was odd about what he said :lol:
Or is it?

I'm sure Voice will clarify it.
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Post by Crowdog » Wed May 09, 2007 5:44 pm

Voice wrote:Imagine a real movement towards getting the North dunes closed. Protest marches, Congressional support, news coverage... the whole shebang!
Brian,

You have a unique opportunity with your position to rally people on GlamisDunes.com. Make it happen.

Jon

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Post by Voice » Wed May 09, 2007 6:15 pm

Without the support of the defacto duner representative... "The ASA" any and all movements are doomed to fail.

I've brought this up thousands of times and every time the answer is...
"It would take an act of congress, therefore, it is impossible."
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Post by Crowdog » Wed May 09, 2007 9:15 pm

A few more details in this article that just came out today:

http://www.elynews.com/articles/2007/05 ... news11.txt

U.S. Wildlife Service says Sand Mountain Blue Butterfly doesn't need federal protection

The U. S. Fish and Wildlife Service announced last week that listing the Sand Mountain blue butterfly as either threatened or endangered is not warranted after completing a thorough review of all available scientific and commercial information.

The Service made this decision in response to a petition submitted by the Center for Biological Diversity, Xerces Society, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, and Nevada Outdoor Recreation Society, to list the butterfly as either threatened or endangered.

The Sand Mountain blue butterfly (Euphilotes pallescens arenamontana) is a small, pale-blue butterfly known to only occur at Sand Mountain, a sand dune system located in Churchill County, Nevada.

The butterfly occurs in close association with its host plant, Kearney buckwheat, on an estimated 1,000 acres within and adjacent to the 4,795 acre Sand Mountain Recreation Area managed by the Bureau of Land Management.

“Since the 90-day finding was published in August 2006, new information has become available on the status of the Sand Mountain blue butterfly and new conservation actions are being implemented by the Bureau of Land Management,” said Bob Williams, Field Supervisor for the Nevada Fish and Wildlife Office. “We consulted with recognized butterfly experts, Federal land managers, and arranged for researchers to initiate field studies to assess the conservation status of the butterfly and establish baseline data which will be used to compare future changes in its population. In addition to the large number of butterflies observed by researchers, a Conservation Plan and Agreement to conserve the butterfly and its habitat was signed in September 2006.”

According to Williams, the gradual destruction of the Kearney buckwheat habitat, on which the butterfly depends, poses a potentially significant threat to the butterfly in the foreseeable future. The Service has concluded that the recent limitation of motorized vehicles to a designated mandatory route system will ensure that further habitat loss does not occur and reduces the significance of this threat. After considering this new information, the Service concluded the Sand Mountain blue butterfly is not currently at risk of extinction and listing under the Act is not warranted.

The Service requests that any new information concerning the status of or threats to, this species be sent to Bob Williams, Nevada Fish and Wildlife Office, 1340 Financial Blvd., Suite 234, Reno, NV 89502, as it becomes available. New information will help the Service monitor the species and encourage its conservation. For more information about the Sand Mountain blue butterfly and this finding, please visit the Service's web site at:

http://www.fws.gov/nevada.

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Post by crash » Thu May 10, 2007 7:32 am

Still no answer to the question of how many acres and what percentage of the previously open area though.(?)

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Post by crash » Thu May 10, 2007 11:05 am

This makes for some interesting reading. There are a lot of similarities here.


Telluride raises $50 million to block development plan
By Bruce V. Bigelow
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

May 10, 2007

Jubilant community leaders in Telluride, Colo., celebrated yesterday to the folk anthem “This Land Is Your Land” after succeeding in a $50 million fundraising effort to preserve a scenic valley beneath the ski resort.


File photo
The historic mining town in Colorado has become a destination resort for the rich and famous.
The drive was boosted in its final days by a donation of more than $2 million from Hollywood movie mogul Tom Shadyac, Telluride Mayor John Pryor said.

The victory for open-space advocates was a bitter setback for Neal Blue, the San Diego industrialist who wanted to build homes, condominiums, hotels and golf courses throughout the 570-acre parcel.

The town launched a battle in 2002 to legally take the property – which residents view as a pristine gateway – through its power of eminent domain. A jury determined earlier this year that the property was worth $50 million, which ignited the town's frenetic fundraising campaign.

Blue's lawyer, Denver real estate specialist Thomas J. Ragonetti, vowed yesterday that the battle over the “Valley Floor” property would not end with Telluride's fundraising victory.

The historic mining town has become a destination resort for the rich and famous. The campaign to preserve the Valley Floor was endorsed publicly by actress Daryl Hannah, eBay Chief Executive Meg Whitman and former diplomat Richard Holbrooke.

“This is one of those incredible occasions where a small number of dedicated people came together and made it happen against all odds,” Whitman said during a conference call.
Her congratulations were echoed during the call by Sen. Ken Salazar, D-Colo., and Richard Moe, president of the National Trust for Historic Preservation.

“Never have I seen a community rally more effectively for the preservation of one of its most important assets,” said Moe, adding that he is a part-time resident of Telluride and serves on the board of the nonprofit group that led the fundraising effort. “When the National Trust placed the Valley Floor on its endangered list a few years ago, the cause appeared nearly hopeless.”

Pryor said that less than an hour earlier he had authorized a $50.87 million payment that meets the appraised value of the property, which lies along a stunning alpine meadow along the outskirts of town.

In wiring the money, the mayor said, “we have taken the final step in the condemnation process necessary to preserve this environmental, cultural and community gem in perpetuity.”

Pryor, who later invoked the spirit of naturalist John Muir, added, “This success proves unequivocally that when focused on a noble cause, a community can indeed achieve what otherwise might have been described as the impossible.”

Ragonetti said Blue is furious over Telluride's use of its eminent-domain powers to take his property, and that he has appealed the conservationists' land grab to the Colorado Supreme Court.

“Mr. Blue's view is that this is just one round in the fight, and there are many more rounds to come,” the attorney said. “He is resolute that he will fight every round until he wins.”

Ragonetti described the town's action as “the hypocritical expropriation of (Blue's) property for the benefit of the wealthy individuals in Telluride who want to use it as their private playground.”

Blue declined to comment through a spokesman at General Atomics, the San Diego company he controls with his brother Linden. Among other things, the privately held government contractor developed the robotic Predator spy plane for the military.

Blue paid a reported $6 million in 1983 to buy roughly 880 acres of property along the San Miguel River just outside the western Colorado ski resort. He planned to develop the parcel through a company he controls, the San Miguel Valley Corp., but his development plans were stymied repeatedly over the next two decades.

After Blue solicited the nearby resort of Mountain Village to annex his property, Telluride voters decided in 2002 to use the town's power of eminent domain to acquire almost two-thirds of his parcel.

Telluride had appraised the land at $26 million, which the town itself had raised, mostly by incurring bond debt. But in February, a panel of six jurors set the value of the parcel at $50 million.

The finding left the town with a shortfall of more than $24 million and only three months to raise it.

Ragonetti said Blue's appeal is focused not on the appraisal process but on a previous court ruling that upheld the town's condemnation and rejected arguments based on the “Telluride amendment.” That measure, passed by the Colorado Legislature in 2004, expressly prohibited Telluride and similar Colorado municipalities from condemning property outside their boundaries.

Telluride's mayor said the town is fully committed to battling Blue's appeal. Pryor said Blue's San Miguel Valley Corp. lobbied for the Telluride amendment, which he said conflicts directly with Colorado's state constitution.

The mayor added, “As John Muir, a tireless proponent of preserving another important valley floor, Yosemite, once said, 'We will fight the good fight.' ”

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Post by Washroad » Thu May 10, 2007 11:59 am

Crowdog wrote: Brian,

You have a unique opportunity with your position to rally people on GlamisDunes.com. Make it happen.

Jon
Voice wrote:Without the support of the defacto duner representative... "The ASA" any and all movements are doomed to fail.

I've brought this up thousands of times and every time the answer is...
"It would take an act of congress, therefore, it is impossible."
As far as trying to get the dunes north of the highway, hey, it may be nearly impossible. Yes, it's a congressionally designated wilderness. It would take an act of congress to change it.

If you have a viable plan, ideas, a line of attack, etc., run it by the ASA BOD.

If you want to try and organize marches, protests, etc., again, run it by the BOD.
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Post by crash » Fri May 11, 2007 7:33 am

This is interesting. VERY INTERESTING. See how the wack jobs will twist things to be used for them when it fits THEIR agenda?

This is an exerpt from an article from the Union Tribune about how a public road that has been in the works for over twenty years is now looking at being blocked by the eco wack jobs with the use of a few politicians and some clever manipulations of politics/laws.



"Also yesterday, the state's 4th District Court of Appeal in San Diego rejected an attempt by the toll-road agency to have a lawsuit challenging the project's environmental report heard in Orange County. The ruling ensures the case will be heard in San Diego County.

Kevin Bundy, a San Francisco attorney representing the California State Parks Foundation, said the ruling reinforces the concept that cases in which the public interest is at stake should be decided in the area that would be affected rather than where the agency is located.

The principle, he said, “is very important to environmentalists.” "


YEAH RIGHT!!! That's why the ISDRA issues have been determined in an Imperial Valley court......RIGHT?????

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Post by Grumpy Wookiee » Fri May 11, 2007 9:12 am

You know, something else that can help all of this get started is by using volenteers (i.e.: me) to RESEARCH what the CBD is going to attack next, so that we can head them off at the pass like what happened at Sand Mountain. Still waiting for someone to give me direction on the RESEARCH COMMITTEE!!!
"The Grumpy Wookiee"

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Post by Wolfpack » Fri May 11, 2007 10:39 am

crash wrote:... said the ruling reinforces the concept that cases in which the public interest is at stake should be decided in the area that would be affected rather than where the agency is located.

The principle, he said, �is very important to environmentalists.� "
Yeah, right. It's only important to environmentalists if it increases their chances of success.

The particular case referenced, I think, is where the 241 toll road would connect to I-5 near San Onofre state beach. For those not familiar with this area, it is right on the coast; It is the furthest North most point of San Diego County at the Orange County Line; It is separated from the nearest suburban areas of San Diego County some 30 miles by Camp Pendleton - a huge expanse of undeveloped land that our leathernecks use to train on to kick a** and keep us free. The City of San Clemente, which is right on the Orange County side of the line, is less than 1 mile from the proposed tie in. Gee. Who would be most affected? Orange County residents less than 1 mile away? Or Oceanside (San Diego County) residents, the closest of which are 30 miles away?

Talk about self-serving. And smart.

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Post by A Family of 4 » Sat May 12, 2007 9:11 am

All I can say is that this is the year to fight.

Get everyone you know involved, educate them as to what is happening around us, encourage them to pick an organization to support, or spread it out between the ones they believe in (or go to an org like Blue Ribbon) but most importantly, set aside all differences you have had in the past with individuals and/or organizations and stand together...it's our only hope.

In our own state of California, we have something like 7.5 million folks who off-road, putting 9 billion back into California's economy, those are some very powerful numbers.

Keep talking, start talking, just get everyone you know involved, tell them of the threats, show them closure signs, explain why there has to be balance, just please, please talk...every person's voice counts. Let it be heard.
Last edited by A Family of 4 on Sun May 13, 2007 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Washroad » Sun May 13, 2007 6:56 am

A Family of 4 wrote: In our own state of California, we have something like 7.5 million folks who off-road, putting 9 million back into California's economy, those are some very powerful numbers.
Vicky, change the "m" to a "b" and it'll be more accurate.

Approximately 20% of the population of this state off-roads in some form. With a total population of 38 million that comes to 7,600,000 off-roaders.
Brian
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Post by A Family of 4 » Sun May 13, 2007 10:05 am

Million to Billion is a HUGE difference...my notes from Lobby Day have 9 bil...dang typos!

(Sure glad that I talk better than type!)

Thanks Brian!


V
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.

-Ronald Reagan

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