Compromise with the CBD & Sierra Club!?!?

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Compromise with the CBD & Sierra Club!?!?

Post by crash »

If you haven't read this thread, you should. This will be the new tactic now that "the other guys" are failing in court. Disgusting!!!

http://www.americansandassociation.org/ ... hp?t=22699

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Post by Ross & Alice »

Too much money in this for the Greenies.
It's a machine that can only be stopped in court.
Their cashflow is their main motivation.
Big salaries,, it's a machine feed by green money.
It's the only real green they care about.
Last edited by Ross & Alice on Thu May 03, 2007 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by crash »

That's my point though. This issue WAS stopped in court and STILL the areas are being closed. This "compromise" makes NO sense to me. Once the species had been determined to not be even threatened by scientific proof and the case thrown out, it should have been "pound sand, you wack jobs"!! Instead, a "working group" is created and a "compromise" is agreed to and then AREAS ARE CLOSED ANYWAY!!!! Does nobody else see the BS in this???? :cry:

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Post by jhitesma »

The problem is the delisting happened mainly because the closures were put in place before the butterfly came up for listing.

It's similar to the FTHL in the dunes - one of the main reasons it was denied listing recently is because of the closure west of the canal at Gordons that was done as part of getting the bridge from Gordon's to Buttercup.

The good news is that without a listing it's easier to fight to re-open those areas and it's not such a slam dunk for the greens to get a lot more closed down.

The bad news is once land is closed it's about as likely to be re-opened as fees are to go down. But however slim a possibility it is a much better possibility than if there was a listed species in the area.

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Post by crash »

Yeah, so just how many areas have been reopened after they were "temporarily" closed???

The problem is, the greenies($$$) may not have gotten their ultimate goal, more money out of this one, but they certainly have gained control of the area and POWER, which is their secondary goal.

Look, these areas have, as far as I know, been open to OHV use since the creation of OHVs and here is a scientific study, that, I'm almost positive, someone OTHER THAN the greenies had to pay for, that PROVED that there was NO DEVASTATING IMPACT ON POPULATION COUNTS CAUSED BY OHVs, yet the area is STILL then closed off to OHV use!!!!

You would have to be BLIND to not be able to figure out that the greenies, deprived of their primary goal, have once again, succeeded in their secondary goal. TO CONTROL WHAT WE DO AND WHERE WE DO IT!!!!

There have been over 100 views of this topic. Why there aren't more people upset about this INJUSTICE is beyond me. :roll: :cry:

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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Crash, I understand your point of view, and I agree to an extent. I may have read this worng, but basically they are fencing in the areas that contain the plants, and are not inhibiting the use of land for OHV'ers. I was thinking that they were putting up fences around areas that arent even used by OHV's, and keeping the more recless riders from destroying vegitation (you know, the 10% that dont give an F).

I am picturing it much like a ski slope, where you have the runs and you have out of bounds. You can still have fun on the runs without going out of bounds. Plus, why would you want to drive your OHV through plants when there is plenty of sand around you?

Maybe I am thinking of it wrong, but when I read in a previous post that they were looking at shutting down the majority of the mountain, and now it has just gone to fencing in small patches of shrubs, Im pretty happy with the outcome.

I love to ride, and I think that we all have the right to ride. But I also think that we need to look at this situation and decide if it is something to really be up in arms about. There are two extreme points of view, and the best solution may very well be in the middle here, which I think was the outcome. One extreme says shut down the whole mountain, while the other says dont shut down anything. Crash, you are on an extreme.

Furthermore, I dont think that this is a battle that has gone so far to the opposite extreme that we should really get our panties in a wad. You know, chose your battles wisely, else be labled as an extremist and in doing so, loose credibility. I think we stood our ground and got a decent result from it, unless I am misunderstanding what they are shutting down. But I am not outraged as you are. Glamis is another story, because we all know that the closures happened due to inproper "scientific" research. Unlike what happened in Glamis, I dont think that the courts sided with either party at Sand Mountain. In this case, the acqusation was made, a study was done, and a course of action was put in place in order to ensure that the extremes can no longer use it as an argument in the future.

That is why you didnt see me up in arms here...
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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

That is a good explanation Grumps (as I understand things), and you are right, they are fencing off area's of vegetation that had volutary closures already in place, but A-holz didn't heed them and have now forced, enforced closures (The very small minority making the vast majority look bad).

I will say the thing that boggles my mind as I drive down Highway 50 to Sand Mt. and see hundreds and thousands of acres of open desert and these quack jobs begrudge us one minute, insignificant spot to recreate. The vastness is overwhelming to then consider that this little corner is so disputed by those who have nothing to gain from fighting it's closure but money and power, which is their true mission.
Last edited by Dusty Rhodes on Thu May 03, 2007 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Sandcock »

It upsets me Crash :evil: People need to be more active in politics and voice their opinions (in numbers) to the politicians, i.e. circle the wagons on an issue, put it before the politician(s), and force them to put this issue in their agenda. If they ignore us, boot'em out the door during the next election.

I like to use the example of boiling a frog to death: You put a frog in a pot of room temp water and bring it to a boil very slowly. The frog will never figure out that he is being cooked. Point is, the greenies (I call them enviro wackos) get all their ducks in a row and run us over, and we do not know what is happening until it is too late. Then we start complaining what the heck is going on and want somebody to do something about it. We all know where the greenies are going. WE need to strategize and cut them off at the pass before BS such as closing off areas because they can.

When you have greenies, liberal judges and agencies working on the same side, it provides for a bad outcome for those of opposing points of views. Again, vote in numbers it counts.

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Post by crash »

Grumpy Wookiee wrote:Crash, I understand your point of view, and I agree to an extent. I may have read this worng, but basically they are fencing in the areas that contain the plants, and are not inhibiting the use of land for OHV'ers. I was thinking that they were putting up fences around areas that arent even used by OHV's, and keeping the more recless riders from destroying vegitation (you know, the 10% that dont give an F).
I had asked for clarification in the other post before I went on this rant and recieved none. Therefore it was/is my understanding, from strictly what I have read on this board, that the vast majority of the area IS being shut down, as that is what I had understood was closed "temporarily" previously. Maybe I have misunderstood and the powers that be ARE doing what you suggest above. Experience with the ISDRA "temporary" closures that were just supposed to be where the PMV was found have been proven to be TOTALLY FALSE statements and what leads me to be skeptical.

Hopefully someone will clarify soon EXACTLY what is being closed due to this "agreement". An amount, on a precentage basis, would be VERY helpful.

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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

I don't think we know until the final map is finished and the fences are erected (The original map was proven to be wrong and FOSM had it changed). It doesn't appear to be as substantial as I had originally thought, though any closure is bad. I'll defer to someone with knowledge of the map of clusures to quantify it.
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Post by crash »

For those of you that didn't actually go see the original article about the, then current, closures, here it is.


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Post subject: Nevada takes steps to protect butterfly Posted: Mar 21, 2007 - 03:28 AM




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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070320/ap_ ... fly_orvs_1

By SCOTT SONNER, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 49 minutes ago

RENO, Nev. - Federal land managers working to keep a rare Nevada butterfly off the list of endangered species have closed scores of off-road vehicle trails at one of the biggest, most popular sand dunes in the West.
ADVERTISEMENT

The closure affects about six square miles of public land where an ancient lake once existed. The emergency order replaces a voluntary measure the U.S.
Bureau of Land Management imposed two years ago on a portion of up to 200 miles of trails that run through shrubs and other vegetation that is home to the Sand Mountain Blue Butterfly, the BLM said.


Agency officials could not say how many miles of trails were closed but said the main sand dunes at Sand Mountain where most motorized use occurs will remain open.

An estimated 50,000 outdoor enthusiasts in dune buggies, motorcycles and other off-road vehicles annually traverse the 600-foot tall, two-mile long dunes about 75 miles west of Reno.

The BLM and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have been seeking a compromise with off-road groups to restrict vehicles since conservationists first started petitioning for federal protection of the butterfly in 2004.

The BLM published the closure order in the Federal Register on Friday and will begin posting signs where travel is prohibited, BLM spokesman Mark Struble said Tuesday.

"It's called an emergency restriction so when everybody hears the `E' word they think we are shutting the whole mountain down. That is not the case," Struble told The Associated Press.

"We're going from a wide-open, cross-country, go-over-any-of-the-bushes-if-they-get-in-your-way kind of situation, to trying to conserve as much of the vegetative resources that is out there as possible," he said.

"If the old way continues, habitat will continue to degrade and the species will be closer and closer to getting listed."

The Center for Biological Diversity and others filed a lawsuit in U.S. District Court in Sacramento in January 2006 to try to force the agency to give the butterfly endangered status.

Fish and Wildlife officials are expected to rule as soon as next month on the proposed listing.

"The closure is a good first step toward protecting the Sand Mountain blue butterfly, which exists nowhere else in the world," said Lisa Belenky, staff attorney with the Center for Biological Diversity in Tucson, Ariz.

"We hope that this closure is an indication that the bureau is finally stepping up to its responsibilities to preserve this area for future generations of Nevadans," said Charles Watson of the Nevada Outdoor Recreation Association.

Richard Hilton, president of Friends of Sand Mountain, said the closure was "kind of pushed on us" but probably the best deal his group of off-roaders could hope for.

"It was one of those things where we felt like any time an environmental group sues, off-road users usually lose," he said.

"They've done a study and there seems to be a good abundance of butterflies out there, but just because of the nature of things, if somebody says they are going to try to list it, we have to compromise some way."

Karen Schambach of Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, another plaintiff in the lawsuit, said she was encouraged by the closure order because BLM has been slow to respond and was "ignoring its own data that shows habitat for this species has been decimated by recreational excesses."

Some conservationists said there still will be too much intrusion and that more protection is warranted.

"The real test of the bureau's commitment to protecting butterfly habitat will be enforcement," Schambach said.

Ed Waldheim, president of the California Off Road Vehicle Association, said off-roaders would be wise to follow the rules.

"Otherwise the next step is closing. This is something that we have learned the hard way in other areas," Waldheim said.

Violators will be subject to up to one year in prison, but Struble said the initial emphasis will be on distributing maps and educating visitors.

"We want this to work because if it doesn't, it raises the specter of more draconian measures to close it down," he said.

In all, the Sand Mountain Recreation Area encompassing the main dunes consists of about 7.5 square miles of public land. The new order closes all but about a one-square-mile area.

"We are trying to work it to have the habitat, protect the species out there and have recreation out there, too," Struble said. "We need people's help and we weren't getting it under the volunteer system we had the first two years."

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Post by crash »

Now, let me just say that I have, unfortunately, never been to this area, but when they are closing down 86.7% of an area that was previously open to OHV use WHEN IT WAS PROVEN THAT THE SPECIES IN QUESTION ISN'T EVEN THREATENED, THAT's why I tend to get a little upset. :shock: :evil:

BTW-Why aren't off roaders entitled to mitigation like all these eco-nazis call for-and get- when there is a new housing project, or whatever, that supposedly "takes" open space away from the general public? Isn't this the same thing???

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Post by crash »

Grumpy Wookiee wrote:Unlike what happened in Glamis, I dont think that the courts sided with either party at Sand Mountain.
Oh really?? It's MY understanding, from what I just read THAT THE COURTS CLEARLY SIDED WITH THE OHVers!!! What MORE of an action could the courts take than saying "NO" to the plaintiffs (eco-nuts) litigation????

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Post by crash »

Now, you may come back with "but the OHV community agreeing to work on the porblem and preserve some areas(87% of usable space BTW) is WHY we won". But don't you see what has just happened???? That statement by the judge is on record with the court!!!

The wack jobs have just got this closed and they got US to agree to it!!! Now no matter what, when anyone proposes opening one square foot of that area again the nazis will point to the court record and say "I don't think so. The only reason this butterfly wasn't listed was because you(OHVers) agreed to close this. If you try and open it we will sue again." AND GUESS WHAT??? They have a court record with statements from a judge to back them up!!!!

Sometimes I think people just can't see the forest for the trees!!!



:oops: Where's my blood pressure meds? :?

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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

The problem as I see it is the CBD and the likes are taking to slow boat to closure. Getting little bits closed at a time and thus more and more is lost over a long period of time until it is all closed. But it comes down to putting our money where our mouth is. It is going to take money and lawyers and neither are exclusive. We need them both. We can spend tens of thousands on toys, but we can't spend less than a hundred dollars on a membership to those groups who are defending our rights, or spend a hundred dollars on raffle tickets to support these same groups. Until we as a community step up with our check books, like the eco-nazi's are doing, then the CBD slow boat to closure tactic is going to work.
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Post by crash »

Like I've said over and over "nibble, nibble, nibble". That's how they operate. Problem is, closures like this don't appear to be a nibble, but another great big bite!!

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Post by Sandcock »

How do you eat an elephant :?:

One bite at a time :!:

Does this sound like CBD :?:
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Post by crash »

To a "T"

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Post by HSSC »

There is nothing from stopping the CBD from filing another lawsuit, and then another after that. I've been dunning for close to 40 years. I can remember Sand Mountain back in the early seventies. The sport has exploded in the last 15 years and yes the terrain has been effected. There are more trails out there now than just a few years ago. Do I like compromise? No. I remember when you could run the dunes north of highway 78 at Glamis, we compromised then and look where we are now. At this point we are going to lose these patches of land at Sand mountain. What we need to do is work on the next closure battle. Because there is so much pressure on these areas now, I beleive informing the new user's of the issues effecting these areas is a key part to keeping these areas open.
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Post by crash »

I'm telling you. We, off roaders, are an "impacted group". We NEED to get some sort of legal status that would not allow ANYMORE taking of lands from us without mitigating those losses by opening other areas. As soon as this is done, we will regain ALL of the areas we want because then the wack jobs will admit that the places we are currently recreating ARE the BEST places for people to use their OHVs with the least amount of impact to the environment. Until that happens, we are just going to keep getting screwed!!! :cry:

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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Crash, the article that you posted is regarding the case that just got turned down in court. They wanted to close 86% of the mountain, as the article states, and the judge said no in the newest article that you started the thread out with. The only thing that he allowed was the fencing off of the areas that were already closed volentarily. These are the areas that have the buckwheat inside of them.

The judge sided with OHVer's, but also gave the plantiff a bone. Therefore, I dont think he completely sided with either one.

And for your information, by typing in all caps, you are not getting me any madder at the court case, you are just getting me mad at you. Please try to settle down and take a hard look at the information that you have worked so hard to provide. Getting upset at this and trying to get everyone to rise to action about something that is already done is not going to help anyones case. Like what was stated, lets look ahead at the next battle and try to keep a united front. Lets start by raising action against the OHMVR Commission so that we have a leg to stand on.
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Post by crash »

Grumpy Wookiee wrote:Crash, the article that you posted is regarding the case that just got turned down in court. They wanted to close 86% of the mountain, as the article states, and the judge said no in the newest article that you started the thread out with. The only thing that he allowed was the fencing off of the areas that were already closed volentarily. These are the areas that have the buckwheat inside of them.

OK. If what you say is true, then I did misunderstand, But I haven't seen anyone answer my question yet either. That is, if this isn't the area that will be closed, what is????

The judge sided with OHVer's, but also gave the plantiff a bone. Therefore, I dont think he completely sided with either one.

He threw them a bone because it was his way out, and because the eco attorney set up the situation to give him that out. We just happened to allow it, hook, line, and sinker.

And for your information, by typing in all caps, you are not getting me any madder at the court case, you are just getting me mad at you. Please try to settle down and take a hard look at the information that you have worked so hard to provide. Getting upset at this and trying to get everyone to rise to action about something that is already done is not going to help anyones case. Like what was stated, lets look ahead at the next battle and try to keep a united front. Lets start by raising action against the OHMVR Commission so that we have a leg to stand on.
That's unfortunate that you are making a discussion about a topic personal. I have almost NEVER done this. And BTW, I try to keep the caps and colors to a minimum, but a lot of readers will just skim the lengthy posts, such as copied articles, so I thought I was doing those readers a favor by highlighting and capping the areas I felt were the most important. If you're personally offended by that, "WHATEVER!"

And BTW- If a subject isn't brought up time and time again on boards such as these, how exactly do you think that the dune enthusiasts are going to know about them? That was my whole point in starting this thread. To get more people reading about what is going on and see for themselves the tactics being used against us and how we are failing again and again. Hopefully, sooner or later, the right people will see it and say "enough is enough". We obviously are not there yet, and I will keep beating this drum until 1) I die, or 2)we actually get somewhere. I don't see "compromises" where we lose more areas without any justification as winning anything. It's time we started taking back what is rightfully ours, or at the very least, not allowing the loss of any more.

THERE. HAPPY. NO CAPS IN THAT ENTIRE LAST PARAGRAPH!! :lol:

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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Personally offended, no. But I am on the same side as you here. I just take your ALL CAPS as yelling or lecturing, and I dont appriciate it. I think that those that just skim the posts will not have anything worthwhile to add to the conversation, and dont need to be included. I wasnt upset about what you were highlighting in the article anyways, but your comments about the article or my previous posts. Keep highlighting your own way, thats fine, but dont expect other people to respond to your posts if you are going to disagree with what they say by using HIGHLIGHTED FONT!

ie:
Crash wrote: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Grumpy Wookiee wrote:
Unlike what happened in Glamis, I dont think that the courts sided with either party at Sand Mountain.


Oh really?? It's MY understanding, from what I just read THAT THE COURTS CLEARLY SIDED WITH THE OHVers!!! What MORE of an action could the courts take than saying "NO" to the plaintiffs (eco-nuts) litigation????
I am not an expert on what has happened in the Sand Mountain case, I have simply read the articles that you have taken the time and effort to seek out and post. When I read those articles, I understood them from a different perspective. I am sharing my thoughts and feelings as you requested, from a different perspective. When I go to Sand Mountian, I will be able to see what has been closed and fully admit if my understanding of the articles was incorrect. But as of this time, I do not feel that the closures were drastic enough for us to be upset as a community, make a big deal about it, and lose credibility for the future cases that are inevitable.[/quote]
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Post by crash »

I am certainly not trying to squelsh your point of view. I welcome it. On the other hand, I have been duning for over 20 years and seen a lot of changes. I can not recall more than ONE thing the government has done out there in the ISDRA that has been beneficial to the general duning community. That one thing being the bridge from BC to Gordons. And THAT was due in large part to one individual who is no longer with us. Maybe you will feel different after you have been duning a bit longer and another 2/3s of your riding areas are locked up forever. As for me, I hope others get as mad as I am and DO SOMETHING!!! I'm just not ready to give up ANY more riding areas. I don't care where they are. We OHVers have given up WAY too much already. It has to stop very soon, if not RIGHT NOW!! That's all.

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Post by Crowdog »

I posted this on Glamis Dunes.com back in March.
Nothing really new here guys. This has been going on since about 2002.

BLM in Carson City is anti-OHV and this was pretty easy for the CBD & PEER. With a subspecies of butterfly that "only exists at Sand Mountain" and the Endangered Species Act that favors no science over real data, it was bound to happen.

A few years back, BLM almost closed everything but the bare sand part of the mountain. We were barely able to stop that (ORBA, CORVA & BRC helped). BLM put in a "voluntary" route system that BLM claimed was largely ignored (with BLM doing the monitoring what would you expect?).

CBD, PEER, etc. petitioned to list the butterfly as endangered. USFWS did not respond. CBD sued USFWS. During this time, a conservation plan was being worked on to hopefully alleviate the need for a listing. USFWS has been stalling, waiting for the conservation plan to be finished. The conservation plan is what you are seeing now. It officially closes what was already "closed" by the voluntary plan.

The USFWS is supposed to come out with their findings on the butterfly in April. If the conservation plan was not in place, it was very likely that they would have sided with the CBD and we would have ended up with only bare sand open. With the conservation plan in place, we at least have some open trails left through the vegetated dunes.

One thing is for sure. We are out-gunned, and with current laws and political makeup (no Pombo to push for ESA reform) it is only a matter of time before the next dune is closed.

Sure is funny how people are now saying - "Oh my God, how could this happen?" Where were all these folks years ago when the fight was new and with more power we had a better chance to prevail. For the first few years, I spent hundreds of hours working on this fight. Many times, I was the only OHV guy at these meetings. You can't win anything at that level. The CBD, PEER & The Nature Conservancy had BLM biologists in their back pocket collecting data, satellite imagery and photos for their case. We needed an OHV friendly butterfly/plant guy and a good land use attorney that would work for free. Try to find a butterfly biologist that is even non-partial, let alone have to figure out how to pay him. I spent a lot of time researching the butterfly and the plant it depends on, but didn't find a silver bullet to shoot down the claims.

In order for the Sand Mountain Blue Butterfly to not be listed, we needed one of these things to come true:
1. Find the same butterfly somewhere else - tried and failed.
2. Show the the butterfly was "doing great" - with only 1000 acres available, this is very tough to do, and harder to convince.
3. Reform the ESA so that subspecies do not get the same level of protection - tried and failed. This is a biggie - insects typically have a smaller range and tend to have geologically isolated populations. It is pretty easy to "find" a new subspecies that needs to be protected by the ESA. Greenies are out there now stacking the deck with new species to be protected. Over the next few years expect them to trickle across the CBD's desk and find their way into a new lawsuit at a dune near you.

I haven't been the front guy in the fight for Sand Mountain for a few years now. I got seriously burned out trying to do it all. In the end, most off-roaders just want to ride. They don't want to volunteer their precious time off to go to BLM meetings four hours from home and burn a vacation day doing it. I don't blame them. I didn't really want to be there either. And I really didn't want to be the guy being pointed at when the BLM shows picture after picture of OHVs using the butterflies host plant as a jump.

Only way for OHV to survive is with power. And I have to agree with Roy Denner, it is all about politics. That takes money. Lots of it. It is hard enough to get off-roaders to part with $20 even though many will burn $500 on a typical weekend in the dunes.

If anything, we went seriously backwards after the 2006 election. The ESA has no chance of reform now. Makes it almost impossible to fight against the CBD when they have a Sand Mountain blue butterfly to use.

Wake up folks!
The reason the butterfly was not listed is because of the conservation plan and the survey that was done last summer.

Stay tuned folks. The enviros will continue to roll out new insect subspecies that get full protection under the ESA. Insects tend to have much smaller ranges and therefore tend to has slight geographic differences. Sand dunes tend to be "islands" of habitat for these subspecies. Theses subspecies + the ESA are the perfect tool for enviros to use. The smaller the dune, the more "critical" the scenario.

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Post by RichB »

"Richard Hilton, president of Friends of Sand Mountain, said the closure was "kind of pushed on us" but probably the best deal his group of off-roaders could hope for. "

That is a sad statement. Wonder if FoSM considered themselves "partners" with the BLM and thought/think they're respected by them?

The Sierra Club, CBD and the Gov't are playing in the big leauges and the results of these type cases show it. If on the one hand you have organizations that have huge member bases, money and lawyers that not only threaten the Gov't (BLMs) pocketbook but actually inflict pain on them via lawsuits and on the other hand you have a small organziation with basically none of the credentials or resources of the other "competing interest" groups (no members, no money, no legal team), who's going to get the results. Seems pretty clear who's getting results and it's not us OHVers in examples like this.

In today's current climate do "Friends of" organizations stand a chance to compete playing hard ball in the big leauges? Is this a receipe that could happen at other smaller dunes such as Dumont?
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Post by Crowdog »

I wouldn't take Richard Hilton's statement literally. Reporter's tend to take statements from people over the phone and twist them to meet their view of how they think the article should read.

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Post by Voice »

Wow, I had no idea things in the off-road community had changed so much in the last 6 months or so since I took notice.

Extremist? Hard core? COMPROMISE??? (did I hear that correctly?)

Do you not understand that each and every compromise is a LOSS by us and a WIN by them and that they are NOT divided between their extremists and their mainstream. They are ALL extremist in that they ALL desire our sport to be abolished. There is only one way we will ever keep the dogs at bay and that is to fight back from the extreme and give NO QUARTER. Compromise is NEVER an option because, as you can see in this case compromise is always a loss for us and a win for them.

A FAIR compromise would be what Crash reccomended... Mitigation for our loss. They take 6 square miles? They are required to find 6 square miles elsewhere for us. THAT is compromise. Chosing between 6 square miles and 3 square miles of closure is NOT a compromise. It is a butt reaming.

If we do not stay mad in this fight we WILL lose.

(caps for emphasis)
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Post by Crowdog »

Voice wrote:Wow, I had no idea things in the off-road community had changed so much in the last 6 months or so since I took notice.

Extremist? Hard core? COMPROMISE??? (did I hear that correctly?)

Do you not understand that each and every compromise is a LOSS by us and a WIN by them and that they are NOT divided between their extremists and their mainstream. They are ALL extremist in that they ALL desire our sport to be abolished. There is only one way we will ever keep the dogs at bay and that is to fight back from the extreme and give NO QUARTER. Compromise is NEVER an option because, as you can see in this case compromise is always a loss for us and a win for them.

A FAIR compromise would be what Crash reccomended... Mitigation for our loss. They take 6 square miles? They are required to find 6 square miles elsewhere for us. THAT is compromise. Chosing between 6 square miles and 3 square miles of closure is NOT a compromise. It is a butt reaming.

If we do not stay mad in this fight we WILL lose.

(caps for emphasis)
Should we get something in exchange for everything we lose? Hell Yes!
But when was the last time off-roaders got any sort of "mitigation" for any closure? The deck is so far stacked against us, and the off-road community is so completely out gunned that it just doesn't happen.

I surely hope your comments weren't directed at me Voice, but in case they were....get off your soapbox and spend some time as at these meetings where you are the only OHV representative for years on end, and enviros get paid to be there. Then come back and spout off.

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Post by Crowdog »

RichB wrote:In today's current climate do "Friends of" organizations stand a chance to compete playing hard ball in the big leauges? Is this a receipe that could happen at other smaller dunes such as Dumont?
The only "Friends of" organization with the organization and funding to play hard ball is the Friends of Oceano Dunes. And all that it would take to neutralize FoOD is a few of the key folks to get burned out.

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Post by Voice »

(checking my list)

Ahhh, I see now... Hold on while I move your name off of the
"Still give a ****" list and onto the "Browbeat into submission" list.

Personally, I'm never going to submit, but hey, that's me.
The deck is so far stacked against us, and the off-road community is so completely out gunned that it just doesn't happen.
Sounds like a good reason to give up to me.

And by the way... thanks for the fine "Howdy doo" welcome back. NOT.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

My understanding is that there were no new closures, that they were already voluntarily closed, and that fencing was added by the judges rule. Therefore no new closures would mean -> no new closures... isnt that a good thing? Maybe I am missing the point here, but after reading the articles several times, I keep coming to the same conclusion, that instead of a voluntarily closure (meaning it was already closed) those little areas that contain the buckwheat are now manditory closures (meaning still closed, but now they have a fence).

I am upset about closures, and I want to at least keep if not regain more riding area. But I dont think that we should be up in arms about them closing off something that has already been closed voluntarily by the OHV community. Who wants to drive over bushes when there is a ton of sand around anyways?

I dont think that this thread was even labled correctly, and it should be something like "CBD and Sierra club turned down by judge". How did we comprimise if we didnt give up anything more than what we didnt want in the first place?

And how can we be mitigated for anything? We dont own the land, the public does. Therefore, we have no right to be "reimbursed" for any land that the public desides is to be used a certain way. The only thing that we can do is keep our heads in the game and convince the public and representitives that OHV use is a safe, fun, family sport that cares as much for mother nature as the extreamists, and that our sport does not endanger anything. Furthermore, it is an acivitiy that allows the public to enjoy the land that we chose to be set aside for recreation.

Go ahead and stay mad if you must. But anger will not solve this. Reasonable thought, careful planning, and educated discussion in a public forum (ie: planning comissions, public meetings with the BLM, etc.) are the only way to go. We have to fight the battle using the same "weapons" that they use, otherwise, our cause is disregarded as a viable option in this battle. We cant go into these discussions with any type of thought that land is "owed" to us. We have to convince the powers that be that our option is the best for the public, enviroment, and future of the area.

You have been mad about this for how long? How much has changed since you started being mad? Have the CBD or the Sierra Club even slowed down much less changed their tactics? How much of your anger has affected the results? The only thing that anyones anger or carelessness on this PUBLIC forum has achieved is giving the CBD and Sierra Club more amunition in court. The comments and statements contained in this board have been presented in court hearings to give the court a view of the off roading community, warranted or not. So keep being mad and continue to let community members promote extremism and recless enviromental practices (ie: posting about pouring brake fluid on weeds to kill them). See if those comments dont come up in court to dis-credit us as a community. I dont know why you raise such a funk over what is more or less a victory and say nothing about the comments of your fellow duners that could discredit us and weaken our chances in further endevours...

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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

The one major factor that is being overlooked on our part is - MONEY! CBD and the likes raise the money to fight their fight.

From what I can tell, we are so busy spending money on our toys that we can use on less and less land and forget to donate/join the very same organizations that are fighting our fight for us. Organizations have great sand car giveaways in which the tickets should be sold out in weeks, yet they are still available on the day of the give away. Organizations have the same people running them for years and years with minimal participation by the same people they are fighting for. We have no one to blame but to point all fingers back at us. Until we UNITE as a community with the vast resources we have, the CBD and their flunkies are going to slowly bleed us out/hand our lunch to us. I am not excluding myself from this criticism as I can do more also. We need to fight fire/money with fire/money. If we don't then we will continue to slowly lose more and more until there is nothing.
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Post by Crowdog »

Voice wrote:(checking my list)

Ahhh, I see now... Hold on while I move your name off of the
"Still give a ****" list and onto the "Browbeat into submission" list.

Personally, I'm never going to submit, but hey, that's me.
The deck is so far stacked against us, and the off-road community is so completely out gunned that it just doesn't happen.
Sounds like a good reason to give up to me.

And by the way... thanks for the fine "Howdy doo" welcome back. NOT.
:roll:

Like I really care about what "list" you put me on. I will never submit either. But the thing is Brian, unlike you who only fights closures by complaining on the internet, I have been on the front lines.

I have been to dozens of BLM meetings fighting to keep Sand Mountain open. Several face to face meetings with congressional leaders. More letters than I can count. Many printed letters to the editor. Hundreds of dollars donated to off-road organizations. Hundreds of hours organizing cleanups and building websites and mailing lists.

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Post by Crowdog »

Grumpy Wookiee wrote:My understanding is that there were no new closures, that they were already voluntarily closed, and that fencing was added by the judges rule. Therefore no new closures would mean -> no new closures... isnt that a good thing? Maybe I am missing the point here, but after reading the articles several times, I keep coming to the same conclusion, that instead of a voluntarily closure (meaning it was already closed) those little areas that contain the buckwheat are now manditory closures (meaning still closed, but now they have a fence)
GW - I believe this is a pretty accurate statement. Several years ago, the BLM insituted a voluntary route plan through the 1000+ acres of vegetated dunes. It was either the voluntary route plan or emergency closure of the entire 1000+ acres. BLM strongly favored the immediate closure of the entire 1000+ acres. We were barely able to hold them off. But with anti-OHV BLM folks doing the tracking of the success of the program, it was doomed to failure.

BLM's latest emergency closure from what I understand is very similar to the voluntary route plan except there will be some fencing, more signs and BLM can write tickets if you ride in a closed area. That sucks for sure.

That said, I have not seen the actual "map" yet.

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Post by Voice »

When I go to Sand Mountian, I will be able to see what has been closed and fully admit if my understanding of the articles was incorrect. But as of this time, I do not feel that the closures were drastic enough for us to be upset as a community, make a big deal about it, and lose credibility for the future cases that are inevitable.
Here is where you and I disagree. Any and ALL closures are drastic, no matter the reason and no matter the amount.

In this case, it appears as if there isn't even a listed species, nor is there a study showing it to be threatened. Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that, similar to the PMV, there is a fair amount of streaching the truth.

As far as getting mad, get used to it. You say that me being mad has accomplished nothing, well, please tell me how working with the system has helped one bit. Can you please point to me one single area which has been re-opened, due to working within the system.

When I am confronted by groups who wish to erradicate me and my sport I get mad. I don't give a flying .... about how they feel about my opinion, in court or otherwise. I'm not about to squelch my opinion based on some irrational fear that my words will be used against me in court. Is Facism alive and well in the off-road community?

I believe in the morality and ritchousness of my opinion and will express it honestly as I see fit. When the day comes that my opinion is to be squelched due to fear or for any reason whatsoever that is the day that I will shake the dust of that orginization off of my shoes and go looking for one willing to actually defend my rights as a citizen and as an off-roader and a lover of nature.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Dusty Rhodes wrote:The one major factor that is being overlooked on our part is - MONEY! CBD and the likes raise the money to fight their fight.
You have brought this up before, and I think it is a valid argument. The one thing that some of us have in absence of money is time. It should be worth something. I am on a shoe string budget, but that will change, eventually...

Crowdog, I appriciate your contribution. If there is anything that I can do to assist you, please let me know. I have already posted (several times) that I would like to assist in research and information compilation. I can screen through new measures, scientific studies, etc, and try to find some information that will either discredit the CBD / Sierra clubs findings/acqusations or support a differing point of view (ie: ours). Let me know what I can do from my humble San Diego abode and desk job...

Please, also keep us up to date about any developments in the Sand Mountain case and let me know if I am misunderstanding what has been written.
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Post by crash »

GW- I'm reading these posts now and thinking about the "big picture" and after a little discussion with Voice, I'm coming back to what I have pushed for many times, but always been blown off about. You are absolutely right about reasoned, focused assaults/defenses. Also, as this last post showed by Crowdog, you can put in a bunch of time and effort and STILL not get to far.

I'm tellin ya. We NEED to start taking the fight to them. We NEED to start using the courts to our advantage. We NEED to start having some meaningful victories. Politics is good and shouldn't be ignored, but to REALLY earn some respect we NEED to put the screws to these guys.

Not just the eco-wack-jobs, but the government agencies that everybody is afraid of alienating. Unless we, the users, start telling the agencies how it should be out there, they ARE going to dictate what is done, and I gaurantee, we aren't going to like it. I know I haven't so far.

I think we need to start with the pass program and/or the green sticker program. Both have been sorely and shamlessly abused.

We need to make a stand!

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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

As far as getting mad, get used to it. You say that me being mad has accomplished nothing, well, please tell me how working with the system has helped one bit. Can you please point to me one single area which has been re-opened, due to working within the system.
How about I show you numerous area's that have been closed by working within the system. That is what the CBD and their flunkies are doing, working within the system to close things down. What we have to do is UNITE, raise money, and get people involved, to use THAT VERY SAME SYSTEM in our favor. If the CBD can do it, so can we. We need the will and money to do it. CBD has those things going for them. CBD doesn't get mad, for that accomplishes NOTHING. Get even using the same tools available to us as are available to the CBD. (I use the CBD name but mean all organizations like them)
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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

crash wrote:GW- I'm reading these posts now and thinking about the "big picture" and after a little discussion with Voice, I'm coming back to what I have pushed for many times, but always been blown off about. You are absolutely right about reasoned, focused assaults/defenses. Also, as this last post showed by Crowdog, you can put in a bunch of time and effort and STILL not get to far.

I'm tellin ya. We NEED to start taking the fight to them. We NEED to start using the courts to our advantage. We NEED to start having some meaningful victories. Politics is good and shouldn't be ignored, but to REALLY earn some respect we NEED to put the screws to these guys.

Not just the eco-wack-jobs, but the government agencies that everybody is afraid of alienating. Unless we, the users, start telling the agencies how it should be out there, they ARE going to dictate what is done, and I gaurantee, we aren't going to like it. I know I haven't so far.

I think we need to start with the pass program and/or the green sticker program. Both have been sorely and shamlessly abused.

We need to make a stand!
Going to court and using the system in our favor to dictate the terms of what happens, costs money for lawyers, biologists, etc. Money may be the root of all evil, but it gets things done. The CBD has the money and they use it and look how successful they have been.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Voice wrote:As far as getting mad, get used to it. You say that me being mad has accomplished nothing, well, please tell me how working with the system has helped one bit. Can you please point to me one single area which has been re-opened, due to working within the system.
You can look at this link and find out how much more working with the system has accomplished than your endless ranting on a BBS. Some spots have reopened, although few in number. But working within the system has sure kept a lot more places from getting closed. Hmm, kind of like Sand Mountain....??? :shock:
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

You can see in my previous post that those with the money are doing their part. Look at the link and see what the Off Road Business Association (ORBA) has been able to accomplish. We need to support our Board of Directors (ASA) and let them continue to work with ORBA and other organizations (SDORC, FoSM, FoOD, etc). In the end, what they come up with as a course of action will have the best results. Lets not hinder their efforts by ranting on a public forum.
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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

I would like to see an Umbrella organization consolidate all the Friends of organizations and have a UNITED front to fight back. All of these small organizations fracture the money, the effort, and the clout of the community as a whole. The CBD must salivate at the thought of taking on a little organization. Little money, little membership, little clout, and it shows by all the victories they have attained. Put all that money, time, and effort into one organization and it would be quite formidable.
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Post by Voice »

I will not have you marginalize me. Maybe you do not know me, I don't know, nor care... but suffice it to say that I've done more than my share to orginize the duning masses and guess what? Those masses are just as pissed as I am at the constant lose, lose, lose scenerio that responding to attacks by the left has gotten for us.

My "rant" as you call it is just as valid as your capitulation.
As I understand it this board is supposed to be a place where people can say what they mean so that the ASA can ascertain the actual duning public opinion that they represent. Are you saying that because my tone is harsh that my opinion is less valid?

I didn't come here looking for a fight. I only desired to rally the troops from their aparant compliant slumber.

After reading what Vince and Jerry said in the newsletter I must say that I was motivated to come here and see just how far things had fallen and I was extremely disheartened.

"There are going to be changes in our future at the Imperial Dunes"

There is no condemnation of the destruction of Glamis. The wilderness that belongs to all of us. Even Jerry and Vince seem to have given in to the pressure and have accepted the inevitability of it all.
Inevitable it may be, but I, for one, will NEVER capitulate or compromise and I believe that there are a great many of us who feel the same.

You will not marginalize us as crackpots. That's the LEFT's job to do.
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Post by Grumpy Wookiee »

Good thought Dusty, I was thinking the same thing. However, if I understand it correctly, there is a hierarchy of how things go. Each organization "assists" the other with what they can, weather it be money or something else. ORBA, CORVA, SDORC, and others are the big ones here in Southern Cali, and each takes up its own issue to fight, so that one orgainization does not have to fight multiple fronts. But each supports the other, and the ASA is a large supporter and co-contributor to some of the larger battles. For instance, the link I posted earlier shows that ORBA is heading a large part of the Glamis fight, getting the PMV delisted and so on. However, in this article, you can see that CORVA headed the front to ensure that CBD didnt have their way at Truckhaven...

It works, but it makes it hard to explain to others...
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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

Hierarchies need to be changed when it isn't working well enough for the overall cause. And I am sorry to say, what we are doing now is not working. We are giving, giving, compromising, and giving more and getting nothing in return or being thrown a small bone here and there like an insignificant child. Until these organizations UNITE themselves, they are going to be treated as such, unfortunately. Imagine the clout, money, and effort that could be put forth by one single organization with one single mission..............fight closures and work to reopen. As it is now, it is more a defensive mission of fighting closures to the best of a small organizations ability and resources. UNITE them into one blanket organization and your resources, effort, and money can be more focused, allowing us to go on the offensive instead of playing defense all the time.
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Post by Crowdog »

All I know for sure in regards to Sand Mountain is that if I was not involved back in 2002, the entire vegetated dune area would have fallen to a BLM Emergency Closure. The CBD/PEER came into town VERY soon after and were able to deal with a very friendly BLM plant ecologist.

Here is a copy of my post in the other Sand Mountain thread:
Since when does that matter when it comes to the Endangered Species Act?!

Best Available Science is all the ESA requires.

So using the CBD's mode of operation:

1. The Sand Mountain blue butterfly is a subspecies of Euphilotes Pallenscens (which is a general species that is much more widely distributed). The SMB has a very slight color difference and a slightly different size genetalia. That is all it takes to create a new subspecies in the scientific community.

2. The Sand Mountain blue butterfly is unique to Sand Mountain and the habitat there is +/- 1,000 acres.

3. No one has found the SMB anywhere else in the whole world. Oh my, this is REALLY serious! Drastic measures must be taken to save this poor little insect.

4. Petition to list the SMB as endangered.

5. USFWS doesn't respond in time.

6. CBD threatens to sue USFWS over lack of action on the petition.

7. CBD sues the USFWS over lack of action.

8. USFWS produces findings.

Normally that is all it takes for the species to be listed. But let's look at a few other pieces to this particular recipe:

- Add a very enviro-friendly, OHV hating BLM plant ecologist that is in charge of species protection at Sand Mountain.

- Add the Fallon Paiute Shoshone Tribe that gets special access to BLM because of what we did to them 150 years ago. The mountain is a "special" place to them and they want it to themselves two months a year.

- Stir in off-roaders that think this will never happen in Nevada.

- Add all of those off-roaders that spend more money on beer in one weekend than they would part to help fight the butterfly listing.

- Add in all of those off-roaders that take the day off to travel to Fallon for a BLM meeting on a Thursday to discuss butterfly conservation plans.

- Sprinkle in the handful of off-roaders that actually show up to a Friends of Sand Mountain meeting.

Mix well until smooth. Bake for three years at 350 degrees.

Take it out of the oven, and what do you get? A turd. That is right, a turd. What else did you actually expect?!

Oh, by the way, look back to #1 above. To create a new subspecies that can eventually get full protection under the ESA requires absolutely zip government oversight (if that matters). The scientific community gets to decide all be themselves. I wonder whose side most of these folks are on. :roll:

Get ready for the next subspecies of some poor little insect to be rolled out.

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Washroad
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Post by Washroad »

Dusty,

There is one national organization in the U.S., the BlueRibbon Coalition.

The ASA/CORVA/SDORC/ORBA/AMA have joined together in Ecologic. We now have a full-time attorney/staff and I don't think that's ever been done before. We're trying dammed hard to get up on it all. Gotta remember, the GAGs have a 30 year head-start on us. Jeez! Think how things evolve. The Sierra Club started out just as a group of photographers.

The ASA has long been in coalition with SDORC and ORBA. ORBA is going national, they'r gonna be huge.
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Dusty Rhodes
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Post by Dusty Rhodes »

That is good info WR. There is strength in numbers and a national organization has more power of people and cash to fight the good fight. We just need to get all local organizations to join up and be a part of it so they can consolidate power. Thanks.
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Gottaride
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Post by Gottaride »

There is one national organization in the U.S., the BlueRibbon Coalition.

Contribute over $100.00 and you get your name in the news letter. And, you can deduct it!!

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