Honda FL440 Project Update- she is Almost READY!!

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79odyincolorado
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Honda FL440 Project Update- she is Almost READY!!

Post by 79odyincolorado » Tue May 30, 2006 11:44 am

ITS ALIVE!

got the 440 mounted up and running in the ody last night. had to fabricate all new motor mounts and engine cradle but its in there and rock solid.

was hoping to use the snowmobile belt as it is a little wider then the ody belt, but unfortunately the driven clutchs were not interchangeable. i could have used the wider belt on the ody driven clutch but it was kinda iffy at best.

anyway, now i need to figure out what to use as a gas tank, oil tank, and how to adapt the wiring and cables to work. anyone got any ideas as to how to make a throttle cable for the new beast?

basicly what it is now, is the ody stock cable is used for one carb as needed on the old 250 motor, but the new motor has 2 carbs, as well as oil injection. i need to frigure out how to make a cable that will go from one to 3. the stock snowmobile cable is far too short, and i cant afford to have a new one made, but i dont wants a big cob job. anyone got any good ideas on how to make something fairly high quality with VERY little resources?

also, anyone have any exp. working with custom exhaust for 2 strokes? i have determined that i am going to use a pair of FMF moto-x silencers with spart arrestors so that i can ride in the parks, but im not sure about how to make the actual header pipes. i was thinking about just hacking up the 3 sets of exchausts that i have (busted up ody DG exhaust, snowmobile exhaust, honda CR250 (modern) exhaust) and trying to make something work but i dont know enough about 2-stroke motors to know how to properly tune the pipe. I know they need back pressure, but i know that the expansion chamber helps that and allows the exhaust to expand and cool quickly, but im not sure what happens from there.

if someone out there can post up and try and fill me in about how that **** works i would hugely appreciate it before i start hacking into my 3 good exhasts and come out with nothing.

still trying to find my charger for my digi cam so i can get some pics posted up... but i was putting the ody around last night with no exhaust for a few seconds at a time and it wanted to pull the front wheels up every time i hit the gas (which was scary because the throttle cable was resting on my shoulder, lol)

- Justin
Last edited by 79odyincolorado on Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Justin Naekel
1979 Honda FL250 Odyssey
- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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Post by 79odyincolorado » Wed May 31, 2006 3:52 pm

here are the pics as promised:

My buddies and mine:
Image

How all the clutch setup worked out:
Image

Engine shot 1:
Image

Engine shot 2:
Image

Engine Closeup:
Image

Front motor mount. This is just temporary for now as i think strength will be an issue... does use the stock mounts though:
Image

rear motor mount. This is bolted to the brame where the gas tank would originally be bolted. I think i need to work on this one but it works for now. I will be reinforcing this in the future though.
Image

These are the tires that i will be running on the ody once everything else is settled and in. As you can see, a HUGE difference in size. I need to get 9-inch wheels for this and drill them, then possibly spacers due to the motor overhanging the frame slightly.
Image

and a few side shots:
Image
Image
Image

i will be working on the new cage this week so hopefully at least have a main hoop by the weekend to go and ride a little bit anyway on some trails (nothing really fast so im not too concerned)

well there you have it so far... keep an eye out for updates.

- Justin
Justin Naekel
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- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

-= Colorado Odyssey & Pilot Site Forums! =-

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Post by crash » Wed May 31, 2006 5:32 pm

DUDE...That looks scary....on all kinds of levels!! :shock: :shock:

79odyincolorado
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Post by 79odyincolorado » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:13 am

crash wrote:DUDE...That looks scary....on all kinds of levels!! :shock: :shock:
i know! isnt it great? cant wait to get it out on the trails...

when i was putting it around, like 1/3 throttle it felt like it wanted to lift the front end.... im seriously considering putting weight in the front in fear of loosing steering control under acceleration.

will update a little later on the progress of the cage and the rest of tyhe setup.

- Justin
Justin Naekel
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- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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Post by Woodglue » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:21 pm

79odyincolorado wrote:.... im seriously considering putting weight in the front in fear of loosing steering control under acceleration.
Justin, dont put too much weight in the front....
From an alternate thread:
:wink:
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Post by 79odyincolorado » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:58 pm

well that wasnt because of weight... that was simply because coming up the hill, he hit a little bump, which caused the front tires to go up, and as they were coming back down, the rears hit the same bump, simply accelerating that forward "nose dive" motion... nothing to do with weight up front...

that combined with "most likely" chopping the throttle by reaction to the impending inccodent created a negative torque on the chassis, then even moreso accelerating the forward rotation...

but in conclusion, the lesson to be learned by all of this is that the cage held up and by the looks of was a good time to be had by all. no doubt a little sore that afternoon im sure, but no harm, no foul i suppose.

- J
Justin Naekel
1979 Honda FL250 Odyssey
- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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Post by 79odyincolorado » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:40 am

More pics of the ody now with the beginings of a cage.

the cage was all hand bend and welded and i think it looks good so far. It is made with a combination of light weight EMT Conduit and thick wall (0.225) 3/4 seamed steel for the main structural bars. i have smashed it around quite a bit and it hasnt even budged.

let me know what you think. I still have a lot of work to do on it before it will be ready for riding safely but i think this is a good start.

Image
Image
Image
Image

let me know what youy all think. I like the look and shape of the cage a lot more then the 80+ ody cages. looks more like a little buggy now then a go-kart.

- J
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- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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Post by Woodglue » Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:26 pm

It looks really good Justin!
Pretty good progress too. :wink:
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Post by crash » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:00 pm

Let me reiterate...
crash wrote:DUDE...That looks scary....on all kinds of levels!! :shock: :shock:
.75 conduit and .225 wall seamed tubing ARE NOT acceptable roll cage material.

A roll cage is ment to prevent serious injury or death. Please, have someone that is proficient in there manufacture fab one up for you. What you have here is possibly more dangerous than not having one at all.

This vehicle is going to be hard to control at best, and deadly dangerous at worst.

Let me also say this. I am an engineer by degree and have been a racer my entire life. I usually keep my opinions to myself in regards to others projects, but many times I am reminded of an incident with a fellow racer.

I was working for a team and we were at a national championship race. While going through tech inspection my boss noticed a vehicle that he thought looked poorly constructed. We both took a closer look and simply could not believe that someone would operate such a vehicle. It was so bad that my boss brought our concerns to the attention of the inspector. Turns out he was a local guy and they were cutting him some slack. My boss said to the inspector that we would not race on the same track with that vehicle. As it turns out we had no problems because we ended up in a much faster heat and the other guy didn't make it to the final. When the series we were in returned to the track the next year we saw the local guy again. He was in a wheel chair and word was he was paralized from the waist down from a race car accident. :(

I am not saying that your project is anywhere near what we saw on that vehicle, but I do have some major concerns by what I see in the pictures and description. Enough so that I even considered and posted this.

Our sport can be extremely fun. It can also be extremely dangerous and heartbreaking for relatives. It is essential that we minimize the later in order to maximize the former.

If you don't know what you are doing when it comes to safety equipment, have someone that does give you a hand.
Last edited by crash on Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Woodglue » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:09 pm

What is 'acceptable roll cage material'?
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Post by Sloppyduner » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:25 pm

Would it be any safer if he refered to it as a crumple(sp) zone?

It looks awsome but I'm afraid crash has a good point.
Image

Image

Image
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Post by crash » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:37 pm

DOM "mild steel" or 4130 is what is commonly used. I believe the mild steel family is in the range of ASTM 1010 if memory serves. In any case, tube diameter is THE most important issue as when the OD of tube increases load capabilities increase exponentially. I have seen small diameter cages perform OK such as in a Formula 440 that a friend of mine had, but now that I think about it, his wife had an incident where she flipped over while being towed back to the pits and the cage was BARELY able to protect her. Wall thickness in the main hoop is paramount and no matter what should not be less than .090. This is for abrasion resistance and crush resistance.

I am certainly not going to get into what is right or wrong. That is an individuals choice. I will say that the diagnal brace between the rear tubes is along the right thought lines, but what is there looks to be minimally effective.

Again, seek professional help when it comes to safety items.

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Post by crash » Thu Jun 08, 2006 1:46 pm

I wil also give you these general rules.

No tube should intersect another tube midspan.

In other words, all attempts should be made to keep loads on tubes in a push pull through their axis. Avoid bends when ever possible, particularly at midspan, and without gusset.

Look to your pilot for a guide. Also, it appears that there is at least part of a factory roll hoop structure in the pictures. If you can, start with that and add bars as needed.

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Post by 79odyincolorado » Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:14 pm

crash wrote:I wil also give you these general rules.

No tube should intersect another tube midspan.

In other words, all attempts should be made to keep loads on tubes in a push pull through their axis. Avoid bends when ever possible, particularly at midspan, and without gusset.

Look to your pilot for a guide. Also, it appears that there is at least part of a factory roll hoop structure in the pictures. If you can, start with that and add bars as needed.
I appreciate the input. the thick wall tubing is actually 1" OD.

this is just a temporary mockup as it sits right now and is nowhere near complete. i have hepled build a few SCCA cages in the past and know a bit about them - definately not claiming to be an expert by any means though. I am however working on an entire exo-skeleton for a suzuki samuri out of 1.5" 120 wall.

mainly i just want this up and ready for a trip to rampart range (slow speed trails to go explore) and dont actually expect to get any kind of significant speed, and am good about knowing my limits.

i know that the cage could be stronger but as i mentioned before, the cage is nowhere near done. Eventually i actually plan on going with a .120 wall 1 and a quarter inch main hoop and downtubes, mated with .120 wall 1 inch to connect it all together.

as far as the OE hoop, it WILL not work at all with that motor without hacking it all apart and comprimising the structural integrity of it all tegether.

i know for sure that the cage needs to be WAY stronger before i can open it up at all really, but like i said, just looking for something to slow me down in a slow speed tip over if i need it just once on the trails... the trails wont allow you to go fast and if you do you can get a hefty fine from the park rangers.

mainly to be honest with you, i just started building this with what i had laying around the garage, to mainly see how i was going to make it all work and what the final outcome will be like. there was no initial intention to use this until i got a little carried away with it and using heavy stuff.

anyway, i am open to all critisizim, constructive or destructive, and/or compliments or insults. lol

- Justin
Justin Naekel
1979 Honda FL250 Odyssey
- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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Post by 79odyincolorado » Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:19 pm

oh, and just on a side note, i have thrown the thing on its side several times with no movement in the cage at all, and i mean thrown hard. My buddies 83 bent on a softer hit to the ground then i was throwing, granted he was in it and i wasnt in mine so thats another 200+ lbs of momentum to deal with.

again though... i am only about 60% done with what you see there. and i may scrap it altogether and go with the Tripple EEE cage - or something like that... i know where i might be able to find one cheap... and i really like the looks of it.

we shall see..

all that being said, i may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, but im definately not suicidal!

- Justin
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- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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Post by crash » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:32 am

Not trying to critcize or anything. Obviously you have done a lot of work on this and it appears you took time to fit tubes pretty well. I just know from experience that more HP and inadequate safety equip is a recipe for disaster.

Despite my handle I have never been in a serious incident. However, all of the minor incidents could have been major if I had not had the proper equipment.

BTW- I know all about the "just mocking it up" excuse. I started "mocking up" my current buggy in "mild steel" saying that I would build the real frame out of 4130 after I got the basic shape down. It's been 8 years since the buggy first drove and it still has the mild steel frame. Remember this quote, "nothing is as permanent as temporary."

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Post by 79odyincolorado » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:42 am

crash wrote:
BTW- I know all about the "just mocking it up" excuse. I started "mocking up" my current buggy in "mild steel" saying that I would build the real frame out of 4130 after I got the basic shape down. It's been 8 years since the buggy first drove and it still has the mild steel frame. Remember this quote, "nothing is as permanent as temporary."
hahaha... that is so true in so many cases... although as a matter of fact, it did just start as a mock up... like i said, im not denying using it a few times at least seeing as how the weather has been great and i havent been able to ride it, but im not going to get crazy in it for quite a while - at least until a good solid cage is on there and the motor mounts are tested and proven. i have drawn up plans to have real mounts machined out of billet when money allows. I have already had the ody down to the shop in Monument to look and see what kinda "real" cage can be built and that isnt going to be an issue, except the money. pipe is **** expensive! but it is on the way.

- Justin
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- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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UPDATE. It is Alive!!!

Post by 79odyincolorado » Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:55 pm

Been a long time since I have been here but I just wanted to give everyone an update.

So I sapped the cheap cage and modified the stock cage to fit over the motor. So finally there is something that will hold up until I have time to finish a full cage. In Ike meantime A did a mild rebuild (rings) on the polaris motor. I had to do a cob job on the exhaust by routing it into a steel pipe and out a howdah CR 250 silencer. I know what I need to do for a true tuned exhaust but I need to figure out how to pack 2 expansion chambers behind the seat. Fortunately the widest part is only 2.5 inches but they need to be 31 inches long from flange to silencer so that is the hard part.

Other then that, the has new brake and throttle cables, brake pads, tires, wheels, seat cover, fuel tank, lines and filters.

So I have been running her pretty hard the last few days getting all the bugs worked out, finding weak points, ect.

hopefully she will be ready for Walden sand dunes next weekend.

In the meantime, if anyone here in the Denver area wanna go ridings locally so I can get some more "break in" time to make sure she is ready for the dunes. I am so excited that I have been able to ride now.

Any input or questions are welcome or if anyone can think of any other bases I should cover L would love too know about it.

Thanks

-Justin
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- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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Post by Vincent J Brunasso » Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:59 pm

79odyincolorado wrote:here are the pics as promised:

My buddies and mine:
Image

How all the clutch setup worked out:
Image

Engine shot 1:
Image

Engine shot 2:
Image

Engine Closeup:
Image

Front motor mount. This is just temporary for now as i think strength will be an issue... does use the stock mounts though:
Image

rear motor mount. This is bolted to the brame where the gas tank would originally be bolted. I think i need to work on this one but it works for now. I will be reinforcing this in the future though.
Image

These are the tires that i will be running on the ody once everything else is settled and in. As you can see, a HUGE difference in size. I need to get 9-inch wheels for this and drill them, then possibly spacers due to the motor overhanging the frame slightly.
Image

and a few side shots:
Image
Image
Image

i will be working on the new cage this week so hopefully at least have a main hoop by the weekend to go and ride a little bit anyway on some trails (nothing really fast so im not too concerned)

well there you have it so far... keep an eye out for updates.

- Justin
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Post by 79odyincolorado » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:08 am

Well any of those pics are long gone so I have no way to re upload them as they came from my phone which has since been replaced twice. I will try and take Some new pics though today and upload.

-Justin
Justin Naekel
1979 Honda FL250 Odyssey
- 440cc Polaris Twin Motor
- Custom Roll Cage
- Soon to have custom Suspension

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Re: Honda FL440 Project Update- she is Almost READY!!

Post by juicedcbr600f2 » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:37 am

Im BACK!!! (formerly 79odyincolorado). I didnt remember the password and the email it was linked to is long out of existance..... so I created a new account.

Just an update. Been out riding now for a year or so in her near finished form. Got my neighbor Keith into the sport too.

My ody is now a Polaris 340 sled engine (newer and faster then the 440). Custom 10 point roll cage built from 1.25" .120 wall tube, 2003 Polaris Indy Deluxe 340 Engine, Custom tuned exhaust, pivoting rear end suspension (changing soon). Mine was mostly the camera platform.

The other one in the vid (with gray fenders) is Keith's FL500! Arctic Cat 503 engine, swingarm suspension, everything tinkered with.

Here is a vid from yesterdays riding...


Here is what my suspension will be in the next few months:



Let me know what you think.

Filed with Oregon Scientific ATC3K camera...... song is Drapht - Sin City - SBX Records (austrailia)

- Justin

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